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CONLANG  November 2011, Week 3

CONLANG November 2011, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Searching for a poetic form

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:22:40 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (240 lines)

--- On Wed, 11/16/11, Leland Kusmer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Padraic – Are you a change ringer?

Alas no! 

> I'm just learning to ring this year!

Cool. One thing I'd like to have a go at some time is banging away on a
carillon.

The closest thing I ever did to change ringing was devise quarters for
the Patriarchal Abbey at Glastein (in Kemr):

agfaC
fgaaf
gaffC
fgaCf

If it's something you can ring on bells and you guys want to give it a go, 
I'd love to hear it on actual chimes!

Padraic

> I've been thinking the same thing about the sestina all
> day, and
> speculating about other forms based on permutations. What
> if (for instance)
> you had lines set up with three rhyming positions in each
> line (two
> internal, one final – probably determined based on
> meter). Then, have a
> rhyme scheme like so:
> 
> abc
> bac
> bca
> cba
> cab
> acb
> abc
> 
> (Change-ringers would call this pattern "Plain Hunt on
> Three"; the rest of
> us would call it braiding or plaiting, depending on which
> side of the
> Atlantic you're on...)
> 
> More interesting change ringing patterns become too long
> quite quickly –
> both in terms of the number of rhyming positions per line
> (or lines per
> stanza, if we're following the sestina model) and in terms
> of the number of
> permutations required to bring you round. Awesome epic
> poetry, perhaps?
> 
> -Leland
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> 
> > This sestina reminds me a bit of change ringing. You
> know, where they ring
> > bells in a certain order, then alternate the order
> forming different
> > permutations of the same set of tones. In the case of
> sestina, you're
> > picking six words, "ringing them" in the desired order
> and then alternating
> > the order. The main difference is the spoken poem has
> extra filler around
> > the six primary words that serve to make sense.
> >
> > Padraic
> >
> > --- On Wed, 11/16/11, Leland Kusmer <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Leland Kusmer <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Searching for a poetic
> form
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 2:02 PM
> > > I'm not sure where the sestina form
> > > fits in your list of parameters – it
> > > determines actual words used, so isn't quite
> rhyme. Also
> > > consider acrostic,
> > > where the first letters of the lines spell a
> word. (This is
> > > a form much
> > > used in ASL poetry – basically, forming a
> pattern among
> > > the handshapes of
> > > successive words, either having them spell a word
> in
> > > English or having them
> > > simply follow a known pattern, like a segment of
> the
> > > alphabet or the
> > > integers.)
> > >
> > > Luc bat looks awesome! Thanks for finding that.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Adam Walker
> <[log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Interesting.  I'll look at that
> one.  I just
> > > learned about Burmese yada
> > > > which uses something called climbing rhyme
> where the
> > > rhymed words drift
> > > > backward through succeeding lines.  And
> luc bat
> > > is an interesting
> > > > Vietnamese form.  Though both of these
> depend on
> > > rhyme in some form.
> > > >
> > > > So far it looks like poetry depends on one
> or some
> > > comination of the
> > > > following:
> > > >
> > > > rhyme -- ending words the same
> > > > alliteration -- begining word the same
> > > > parallelism -- contrasting/comparing ideas
> > > > syllable counting
> > > > stress or tone paterning
> > > >
> > > > Are there other structures?
> > > >
> > > > Adam
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Leland
> Kusmer
> > > > <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The oddest poetic form I've ever
> encountered in
> > > English is the
> > > > sestina[0],
> > > > > which prescribes not rhymes but
> literally the
> > > words used to end each
> > > > line –
> > > > > the final words of the lines in the
> first stanza
> > > must reappear as the
> > > > final
> > > > > words of the lines in the later stanzas
> (but in a
> > > strictly defined
> > > > changing
> > > > > order). Examples that I've seen in
> English often
> > > feel free to substitute
> > > > > either homophones or
> differently-inflected forms;
> > > this could be really
> > > > > interesting in a highly inflected
> language (where
> > > only the word *root*
> > > > must
> > > > > recur). It could also be interesting to
> create
> > > other patterns
> > > > > of recurrence, or to integrate
> line-internal
> > > constraints of some sort.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Leland
> > > > >
> > > > > [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sestina
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Adam
> Walker
> > > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > I'm doing NaNoWriMo this year
> (first time
> > > for me) and my novel already
> > > > > > includes bits of Tvern El,
> Trelkairni,
> > > B-G-2-3 (after a fasion),
> > > > > Grravgaaln
> > > > > > and English heavily laced with
> Fthsaisthf
> > > idioms.  Now I am preparing
> > > > to
> > > > > > compose a poem that will be rather
> important
> > > to the plot, though I
> > > > > haven't
> > > > > > decided which charcater will get
> to speak
> > > the poem (and thus haven't
> > > > > chosen
> > > > > > the language in which to compose
> it) but I
> > > want to use a, well exotic
> > > > for
> > > > > > lack of better term, poetic
> *form*.  I
> > > am familiar with rhymed verse,
> > > > > > metered (blank) verse, free
> verse,
> > > alliterative verse,  parallelism,
> > > > > haiku,
> > > > > > and know that Somali verse
> includes some
> > > rather arcarne internal
> > > > > > constraints that I can't recall
> the
> > > operation of atm, but I'm sure
> > > > there
> > > > > > must be other poetic forms out
> there that
> > > would be managable, but quite
> > > > > > strange to a standard average
> reader of
> > > SF.  Does any one have
> > > > > suggestions
> > > > > > for forms I should research?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thankees all around in advance
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Adam
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 

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May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
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May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
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March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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December 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 1
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 1
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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