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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  November 2011, Week 3

CONLANG November 2011, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Roman letter syllabary problems

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:23:47 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (136 lines)

On 18/11/2011 15:11, And Rosta wrote:
> R A Brown, On 18/11/2011 08:56:
>> On 17/11/2011 20:52, BPJ wrote:
>>> So why can't /paa/ be [pa.a], [paha] or [pa?a] ad
>>> lib?
>>
>> No reason at all, that I am aware of.
>>
>> The problem is that as things stand at the moment, it
>> seems to me that neither ['pi.a] and ['pija] nor
>> ['pu.a] and ['puwa] will realistically be
>> distinguished. The only way of doing that is to insist
>>  that /a/ _must_ be preceded by [h] or [?] or some
>> other sound. If it must be so proceeded then that
>> sound is surely no longer 'ad_lib' but assumes
>> phonemic status.
>
> To me it (i.e. [?a, ha]) would look like an obligatory
> allophone of /a/.

A good point.

To me this debate is reminiscent of of arguments over the
phonemic status of [j], [w] and [?] in modern Standard
Chinese (MSC) where e.g., discussing V syllables, Paul
Kratochvil writes: "The onset of vowels in this type of
syllables is either zero (the transition from silence to
sound is breathed), a glottal stop or a semivowel(the vowel
is preceded by a semiclosure in the palatal position [j-] or
in the bilabial position [w-])" [The Chinese Language Today,
1969].

As for the most part the Brx syllabary consists of CV
syllables, it is best IMO to regard /ja/, /ju/ , /wa/ and
/wi/as CV syllables rather than rising diphthongs
(especially as, unlike MSC, such diphthongs would not occur
after a consonant) - i.e. /j/ and /w/ have phonemic status
in Brx. So the Brx situation is not quite the same as in MSC.

That means /a/ would be anomalous in the Brx syllabary in
that it alone is _phonemically_ V, while the 25 other
syllables are all CV.


It seems that all are greed that /a/ [a] must be preceded by
some sort of sound.  This is, in fact, what I have
tentatively done in my current off-line version of the Brx
Phonology & Orthography page. I wrote on 15th Nov. that
"This afternoon I re-assigned _a_ as /ɰa/ - but /'çiɰa/ and
/'tuɰa/ "

/ɰ/ reflects that phoneme and both [ɰ] and [ɣ] are,
currently, permitted allophones.

The questions seems to be: (a) What range of sounds? (b)
Therefore, how do we denote the phoneme?

For the moment, I will symbolize the phoneme as /*/.
=======================================================

On 18/11/2011 12:58, BPJ wrote:
> On 2011-11-18 09:56, R A Brown wrote:
>>
>> On 17/11/2011 20:52, BPJ wrote:
[snip]

>>> I guess that what I essentially meant was that it
>>> isn't the whole world if it came out as [paxa] for
>>> some -- it doesn't necessarily mean that Brx
>>> acquires a velar fricative phoneme /x/ which must be
>>> subject to the same allophonic rules vs. /s/ as /k/
>>> vs. /t/ -- phonologically it's still /./,

Can the syllable break be a phoneme?


>>> which just happens to have a wide range of
>>> allophones, some of which have oral friction, which
>>> is OK as long as they don't coincide with allophones
>>> of /s/. That's actually how a book I have describes
>>> Japanese /h/.
>>
>> Yes, but the Japanese /h/ occurs also before /u/. I
>> haven't discounted having a phoneme /h/ or something
>> similar, but including /hu/ means I need 27 symbols
>
> Not if the contrasts /h/~/u/ /__u and /h/~/j/ /__i are
> neutralized the same way that /t/ vs. /k/ is neutralized
> before /i/;

But the neutralization of /t/ and /k/ before /i/ is nothing
more than the very common feature of palatalization, i.e.
both palatalized /t/ and palatalized /k/ fall together as /c/.

> then /ha/ will be the only /h/ syllable which needs its
> own letter. If you define /h/ as an approximant

i.e. as [ɦ] ?

I notice on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approximant_consonant

that the approximant equivalent of [ɑ] is given as [ʕ}, and
IPA doesn't appear to make a significant distinction between
the voiced pharyngeal fricative and the pharyngeal
approximant. Also on the same page I read: "Occasionally,
the glottal "fricatives" are called approximants, since [h]
typically has no more frication than voiceless approximants."

Interesting.

[snip]

>
> If French can have a phoneme with the allophones [ə], [
> ʔ] and zero (e muet/h aspiré),

I don't think _e muet_ and _h aspiré are rightly considered
the -same_ phoneme.  IMO we are dealing with two distinct
features.  It is true that some speakers do, especially if
the word is stressed, have [h] or [ʔ] before the vowel; but
they are very much the minority, and the phonemic
interpretation of this IMO is open to debate.

Thanks, And & BPJ - I think things are resolving themselves
in my mind     :)

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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