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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  November 2011, Week 3

CONLANG November 2011, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Roman letter syllabary problems

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:36:01 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (203 lines)

On 19/11/2011 18:12, BPJ wrote:
[snip]

I have excerpted bits from BPJ's email in a different order
in which they were written because one or two problems
discussed below are not problems in the off-line version of
the Brx 'Phonology & Orthography' page.

[PALATALIZED PLOSIVES & SIBILANTS]

> [^5]: But note that you probably should abandon the
> transcription of *x* as [çi] in favor of [ɕi] or even
> [ʃi].

and:
> I've heard of the sibilant [s] palatalizing and ending up
> as [ɕ], [ʃ] or even [ʂ], but never actually as the
> non-sibilant [ç].

I have _already_ abandoned that transcription; indeed, I had
substituted /ʃi/, but of course phonemically it is /si/. At
the moment I have it noted, slightly unphonemically, as
/sʲi/, with a note saying it realized as either [ʃi] or
[ɕi]; indeed, IMO [sʲi] itself would be quite satisfactory.

/ç/ was a hangover from Bax (Piashi) where it did make sense
since in that language both /si/ and /χi/ had fallen
together as [çi].  But this is not so in Brx. There is only
one series of fricatives, namely _sibilants_.  For that
reason /çi/ and/or [çi] no longer make any sense and have
been dropped [see above].

> or you'll get a lot of [si] for {[ci]} and {[çi]};

I can't imagine any linguist mispronouncing either [ci] or
[çi] as [si]!

The page is, I would have thought, fairly clearly meant for
those with some linguistic savvy.  Obviously, if I were
describing Brx for a general anglophone readership, I would
use _shee_, and if for a francophone readership _chi_    :)

> [tʃi] and [ʃ i] have the virtue of not looking familiiar
>  from English/French/Spanish orthography, while their
> values are somewhat familiar to ordinary dictionary
> users.

Brx /ci/ however _does_ represent _both_ /ti/ and /ki/. It
seems to me reasonable that, if both palatalized /t/ and
palatalized /k/ have fallen together as the same sound, I
denote it phonemically as palatal plosive /c/.  This may, of
course, be pronounced as [c], [tʃ] or [tɕ]

[HIATUS]
>> Can the syllable break be a phoneme?
>
> A hiatus can -- at least in French --, and /./ is the
> closest thing to a hiatus symbol you got in an IPA-based
> phonemic transcription.

and:
> Sure, but h aspiré is commonly interpreted as a phoneme
> with <hiatus> as one of its realizations. On that I
> think there's agreement. h-dropping English and speakers
> of h-dropping Swedish dialects also evidence [h] as a
> realization of <hiatus>, so it goes full circle!

AFAIK hiatus is the normal between words ending a vowel and
a word beginning with h aspiré.  But it is more complicated
in that h aspiré also prevents liaison. One cannot IMO deal
with h aspiré without considering the whole phenomenon of
liaison.  I would rather leave the questions of hiatus &
liaison in modern French to Christophe; I do not think it is
helpful in this discussion.

I am, of course, in no position to comment on h-dropping
Swedes, but IME h-dropping anglophones treat such words just
like any other words beginning plain vowels.  I am not aware
of /h/ being a realization of hiatus except maybe as a
result of hypercorrection or, of course, in some
stereotypical depictions of Cockney.  In Brit English a
common way of avoiding hiatus is "intrusive r' - but that's
another matter.

OK: *all Brx syllables are CV; there is no hiatus.*

[BRX APPROXIMANTS]

> And Pulleyblank and others add /ɦ/ as the semivowel
> corresponding to /a/ at least for Middle Chinese, if not
> for some dialects of Modern. Apparently PST *ɣ actually
> figures in some of these correspondences.

I haven't ruled out /ɦ/.

> But note /ɦ/ in the /ɰ/ slot in Middle Chinese
> (apparently it does show up as /h/ in some exochinese,
> but I'm unsure of the details. Also NB the frequently
> allophonic relation between [h] and [ɦ]!

Oh dear, I wish I hadn't mentioned that in the off-line
version of the page I was currently using /ɰ/     :(

Basically it is a _place-holder_ until I have made a
decision - nothing more, and nothing less.


> But let's assume for a moment that
>
> 1) Brx is a natlang and not an engelang. 2) Pre-Brx had
> the three approximant phonemes /w/, /j/ and /ɰ/,

    :-)

Pre-Brx - maybe even a proto-BrSc which branched off into
pre-Bax and pre-Brx      ;)

Actually, at one time I did think about producing a
pseudo-history of how Brsc/Bax/Brx came about.  I thought it
would help in defining the lexicon.  But I realized a
pre-history for such a language would be very contrived and
the amount of tome spent doing it would not be worth it.  As
for lexicon, it would probably throw up far too many homophones!

I have already questioned how likely [ɰ] is to be a
_phoneme_. It seems to me the sound more often occurs as the
allophone of something else.

> which all could occur before and between any two vowels.
> 3) That they all could have voiceless allophones, --
> voiceless approximants normally, not fricatives --

"Because voicelessness has comparatively reduced resistance
to air flow from the lungs, the increased pulmonic pressure
creates more turbulence, making acoustic distinctions
between voiceless approximants (which are extremely rare
cross-linguistically and voiceless fricatives difficult."
see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approximant_consonant

I don't always go along with Wikipedia, but I do on this one.

[snip]
>
> 7) The distinctions thus lost tended to be
> morphologically important,

That's going to involve pre-Brx morphology - yikes!

> which militated against these changes -- cf. how the *s
> >*h > zero > krasis change failed to happen in s-aorists
> in Greek, with which you are surely familiar.

Michel Lejeune (Phonétique historique du Mycénien et du Grec
ancien", Paris, 1972) considers intervocalic -s- in sigmatic
aorists to be "restauration de -σ-" after the analogy of
βλέπω ~ ἐβλεψα.

Analogy place too much a part in the evolution of morphology
in so very many languages. Personally, I think the whole
notion of pre-Brx with developing phonology and morphology
is making things unnecessarily complicated.

[snip]
>
> Now the *engelang* Brx need not have a 100% natural
> phonology.

No - an engelang could have a weirdly unnatural phonology.
But that's not what I want for Brx.

There you need only:
>
> a) state that theoretically \_a\_ is a pure vowel /a/,

I have already decided - see above - that all syllables are
of the CV type.

>> I notice on:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approximant_consonant
>>
>> that the approximant equivalent of [ɑ] is given as [ʕ},
>>
[snip]
> I have seen [ɰ] (or "[ɣ]") described as the approximant
> equivalent of [ɑ] or [a].

Quite likely.

> And speak after the BEEP... ;-)
>

Not quite there yet - 'real life' keeps getting in the way   ;)

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 4
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 3
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December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 3
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September 2004, Week 3
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August 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 3
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January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
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October 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 1
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February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
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