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CONLANG  November 2011, Week 5

CONLANG November 2011, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Hieroglyphics (was: Topicality)

From:

Peter Cyrus <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 21:15:52 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (52 lines)

I think the situation in Chinese is more like Arabic : learning to write
means learning the standard language.  Written Cantonese in Characters uses
lots of non-Mandarin characters.

On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Tuesday 29 November 2011 20:34:38 Jim Henry wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > > Indeed, they are.  I have once read that the Egyptian
> > > hieroglyphics and the Mesopotamian cuneiform were so
> > > complex because the scribes wanted it so such that they
> > > could maintain the advantaged position they held in
> > > society - had they simplified the scripts towards an
> > > alphabet, everybody could have learned to write, and the
> > > scribes as a class had become superfluous.
> >
> > Is there evidence that the Egyptian scribes came up with the idea of
> > an alphabet and rejected it for sociological reasons?  Or that they
> > considered borrowing the Phoenician alphabet, at a later period, and
> > decided not to?  It seems more plausible that the idea of an alphabet
> > is a harder or less likely invention or discovery than that of a
> > syllabary or logographic writing system.  There is evidence that
> > linguistically naive people tend to consider syllables (and of course
> > words) more fundamental units than phonemes, and the earliest writing
> > systems to be invented were all logographic or syllabic.
>
> I indeed know of no such reform attempt been turned down in
> ancient Egypt, and the whole idea of scribes refusing to simplify
> the script for the sake of their career may just be a guess by
> some historian.  What you say is probably right; the long survival
> of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Chinese logographic traditions
> may simply be a case of nobody fixing what isn't broken.  Also,
> logographic scripts have the advantage of being independent from
> pronunciation, which may vary a lot between dialects.  Chinese is
> a case in point, where the differences between the "dialects" are
> big enough to consider them separate languages, yet the writing
> system, in encoding morphemes rather than phonemes, manages to
> bridge these divides.  (Apparently, the differences in syntax
> between the Chinese languages are small enough to render them
> mutually intelligible once the differences in pronunciation are
> dealt with.)
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
>

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