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CONLANG Home

CONLANG Home

CONLANG  November 2011, Week 5

CONLANG November 2011, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Topicality

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Tue, 29 Nov 2011 20:36:51 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (190 lines)

On 29/11/2011 14:01, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Tuesday 29 November 2011 08:38:34 R A Brown wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> That is an arguable thesis. Was the hieroglyphic
>> system specially suitable for ancient Egyptian and the
>> Coptic alphabet suitable for its descendant?  It seems
>> to me that writing systems are remarkably adaptable.
>
> Indeed, they are.  I have once read that the Egyptian
> hieroglyphics and the Mesopotamian cuneiform were so
> complex because the scribes wanted it so such that they
> could maintain the advantaged position they held in
> society -

There's some truth in that, at least as far as Hieroglyphs
are concerned. But remember two other scripts were developed
in ancient Egypt: hieratic and demotic.  The latter became
the 'ordinary' writing in later Egypt.

The hieroglyphs were retained basically for monumental
inscriptions and the retention pf some of the complexity was
clearly due to simple conservatism; but it also enabled
scribes to take advantage of there often being more than one
way in which a words could be written; then you made your
decision on space available and the visual overall effect.

Cuneiform did gradually simplify over the centuries,
particularly as it became adapted for more and more quite
different languages; but it never got to the alphabet stage
but became stuck at the syllabary stage, tho it signs for
both CV and VC syllables.

> had they simplified the scripts towards an alphabet,
> everybody could have learned to write, and the scribes as
> a class had become superfluous.
>
>> Tho I admit no one would disagree that the Phoenician
>> derived alphabet was a better way of writing Greek
>> than Linear B was (tho the Cypriots happily carried on
>> using their syllabary well into the Classical period).
>
> Yes.  Actually, many if not most writing systems are
> underspecifying, leaving some details of the phonology
> unrepresented, to the frustration of philologists.  Why?
> Because they are made for people who know the language
> and can thus supply the missing details from their own
> knowledge.

Exactly. Ancient writing systems were intended to an
aide_mémoire, they were never intended to give a phonemic
(much less phonetic) representation of the language.

Of course when alphabetic systems took off in Europe and the
Brahmins got to work on the Indic abugida, there was some
attempt at near phonemic representation.  But diachronic
sound changes soon brought changes    :)

[snip]
>>
>> But according to many, there are clear linguistic
>> criteria to the suitability of a language as a global
>> auxlang.  I also think that is very debatable - but
>> that other list is the place for that debate.
>
> Right.  "Easy to learn" is such a vague and vacuous
> notion,

Yeah - that's the one   :)

Everyone's auxlang is "easier to learn" - often it is
implied, if not actually stated (as it not uncommonly is)
"the easiest to learn."

I said in my teens I used to churn out auxlangs - a good
three or four a year.  I once had the notion that if you
made an auxlang easy to learn for one group of people
(usually, of course, those speaking western European
languages), then it was more difficult for everyone else.
Therefore, I thought, the only fair thing to do was to make
it equally difficult for everyone   :)

Maggel as a global auxlang - now there's a thought  :-D

> for instance.  One can draw a few conclusions from that,
>  such as that irregular inflections are to be avoided,
> but that is about it.  The linguistic criteria for a
> good IAL are anything but clear!

Indeed, not.

[snip]
>> I was annoyed only with myself for rising to the bait,
>>  so to speak.  Of course I could have used that abugida
>>  or any other abugida or, indeed, some syllabary such
>> as hiragana, katakana, Linear B or the ancient Cypriot
>>  syllabary.  But *none* of them would have met the aim
>>  of using the Roman alphabet as a shorthand system.
>
> Indeed.  The idea behind the briefscript project, as I
> understand it, is to use *the readily available Latin
> alphabet* in a way that texts are, at average, shorter
> than in natural languages;

That's about it. Dutton's aim was to achieve shorthand speed
with the Roman alphabet.  A little ambitious, I think.

> there is *nothing* a newly invented script such as Shwa
> could contribute to the solution, no matter whether it is
> peddled as a universal orthography or not!

Indeed not. (Shwa hasn't got a 'shorthand gait', methinks).

[snip]
>
> No conlang raises the interest of every person on this
> list, I think.  There are people who just don't care
> about Latin- alphabet syllabaries; there are people who
> aren't interested in a language of "Elves" of prehistoric
> Britain; etc.  Some people monomaniacally pursue their
> own project and don't care about *any* other conlang.
> Most, however, take interest in some, but not all
> projects of other conlangers.
>

Maybe - but one of my resolutions for 2012 is to endeavor to
reply when members ask questions about their on conlangs.
=====================================================

On 29/11/2011 19:34, Jim Henry wrote:
[snip]
>
> Is there evidence that the Egyptian scribes came up with
> the idea of an alphabet and rejected it for sociological
> reasons?

They did have single consonant symbols which could have been
used as an abjad (the Egyptians never considered it
necessary to show vowels); indeed they did use this for
proper names, especially foreign ones.  It was never
rejected.

But I don't think there was any social reason for not going
over entirely to an abjad; my own feeling is that they
thought it would make writing too long winded.  Although the
hieroglyphs have some pictographs and quite a few logograms
and 'determiners', the bulk of the symbols represent
consonant values.  They had symbols represent string of
three consonants (with intervening vowels), two consonants
and, of course, one consonant. I guess the hieratic &
demotic systems made greater use of these phonetic elements.

> Or that they considered borrowing the Phoenician
> alphabet, at a later period, and decided not to?

They would have been too proud of their own ancient culture
to consider using the Phoenician abjad.  When they did take
to using a modified version of the Greek alphabet, it was
for religious not linguistic reasons. It came with the
adoption of Christianity and is used to the present day by
the Coptic Church.

> It seems more plausible that the idea of an alphabet is a
> harder or less likely invention or discovery than that of
> a syllabary or logographic writing system.

Yes, indeed - the ancient evidence certainly points that way.

> There is evidence that linguistically naive people tend
> to consider syllables (and of course words) more
> fundamental units than phonemes,

Yes, one thinks of Sequoyah  and the Cherokee syllabary.

> and the earliest writing systems to be invented were all
> logographic or syllabic.

Yep.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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