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CONLANG  January 2012, Week 4

CONLANG January 2012, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Curious verb construction

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:55:04 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (112 lines)

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:41:26 +0100, Nikolay Ivankov <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> >Silly me, it is a predicative.
>
> Ah, that's doubtlessly the best answer!  It does its own thing.  You can
> never go wrong with a sui generis category -- at worst that's an error of
> having a non-minimal description.
>

Yes, indeed. For years I couldn't decide where to save the emails (if I
saved them at all) from an acquaintance of mine. He wasn't really a friend,
not family. Then one day I realized I could make a folder just for him.
Works out great.

stevo

>
> >But well, although it is not too
> >grammatical, "yemu pet'" is aa commonly used reduction.
>
> Interesting.  More below.
>
>
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:06:06 -0700, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]
> >
> wrote:
>
> >On 24 January 2012 10:37, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:34:57 -0700, Logan Kearsley <
> [log in to unmask]>
> >> wrote:
> >> Well, let me continue playing devil's advocate.  For one, _nuzhno_
> doesn't
> >> necessarily speak to _nado_; constructions of the same meaning don't
> have to
> >> be of the same syntax.
> >
> >Generally true, but constructions of the same meaning which differ in
> >only a single word in the same syntactic position *are* likely to be
> >similar.
>
> Indeed.  In this case I do actually find it easy to imagine that _nado_ is
> formally and semantically similar enough to _nuzhno_ that it has been
> captured by it, and is taken by speakers as the same category, whatever
> that
> category is.
>
> >> But for two, if _nuzhno_ is zero-derived from a predicate adjective,
> why not
> >> call it as a predicate adjective in this construction?
> >
> >Because it's modifying an infinitive verb, which is what adverbs are
> >for, and not a noun, which is what adjectives are for.
> >It's supported by the fact that _nado_ can only be used with verbs,
> >and not nouns.
>
> You're taking for granted that _nado_ is a *modifier* of the infinitive
> verb.  The way I was trying to parse things, it's the *head*, and the
> infinitive verb is its argument.  The fact that a word takes a verb as
> argument says absolutely nothing about its syntactic class ("he wanted to
> sing", "he felt an urge to sing", "he was eager to sing", "he was down with
> singing", need I go on).
>
> In favour of the position that _nado_ should be the head is that (iinm)
> Russian has the usual IE pattern of through-going dependent marking.  You
> shouldn't have to switch the main verb of a clause to infinitive 'cause you
> stuck an adverb on it!  Leaving out a mere adverb from a clause shouldn't
> allow you to infer its elision (unlike in _yemu pet'_)!
>
> >> Perhaps it's germane what happens to these constructions if you change
> the
> >> tense.  What's "he had to sing"?
> >
> >Then they use _byt'_ as an auxilliary, just like other copular or
> >predicate adjective constructions.
> >
> >"Yemu nado bylo pet'." -> "He needed to sing." / "To sing was needed for
> him."
> >"Yemu nado budet pet'." -> "He will need to sing." / "To sing will be
> >necessary for him."
>
> That too squares an analysis where _pet'_ isn't main verb, I think -- the
> fact that you can just stick another finite verb in to bear the tense (in
> place of my assumed zero present copula) without adjusting anything else...
>
> >> One might object that one would expect _nuzhnoye_ for the adjective
> >> ordinarily.  But the yod-less forms of adjectives survive elsewhere too,
> >> don't they?
> >
> >Yes; they're used exclusively as predicates, or, for the neuter form,
> >as productive adverb derivations (one *can* use the long-form
> >adjectives in predicate positions as well, but never as adverbs).
>
> Mm, good, good.  So, by its form, _nuzhno_ is either
> (1) a predicative neuter adjective, or
> (2) an adverb.
> That beautifully fails to decide the issue.  (1) is my proposed analysis
> (_nuzhno pet'_ "it *is necessary* to sing"); (2) is yours.
>
> I suppose that what we really have here is an instance where the headedness
> of the construction is ambiguous, perhaps because it's being reanalysed.
> (Happens all the time, of course; couldn't grammaticalise without it.).  If
> you want to view _pet'_ as the head I guess you say the infinitive is
> serving as a debitive mood here, and then _nado_ really is just a
> reinforcing adverb...
>
> Alex
>

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