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CONLANG  January 2012, Week 4

CONLANG January 2012, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Curious verb construction

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:05:39 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (92 lines)

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:41:26 +0100, Nikolay Ivankov <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>Silly me, it is a predicative. 

Ah, that's doubtlessly the best answer!  It does its own thing.  You can
never go wrong with a sui generis category -- at worst that's an error of
having a non-minimal description.

>But well, although it is not too
>grammatical, "yemu pet'" is aa commonly used reduction.

Interesting.  More below.  


On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:06:06 -0700, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

>On 24 January 2012 10:37, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:34:57 -0700, Logan Kearsley <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>> Well, let me continue playing devil's advocate.  For one, _nuzhno_ doesn't
>> necessarily speak to _nado_; constructions of the same meaning don't have to
>> be of the same syntax.
>
>Generally true, but constructions of the same meaning which differ in
>only a single word in the same syntactic position *are* likely to be
>similar.

Indeed.  In this case I do actually find it easy to imagine that _nado_ is
formally and semantically similar enough to _nuzhno_ that it has been
captured by it, and is taken by speakers as the same category, whatever that
category is.   

>> But for two, if _nuzhno_ is zero-derived from a predicate adjective, why not
>> call it as a predicate adjective in this construction?
>
>Because it's modifying an infinitive verb, which is what adverbs are
>for, and not a noun, which is what adjectives are for.
>It's supported by the fact that _nado_ can only be used with verbs,
>and not nouns. 

You're taking for granted that _nado_ is a *modifier* of the infinitive
verb.  The way I was trying to parse things, it's the *head*, and the
infinitive verb is its argument.  The fact that a word takes a verb as
argument says absolutely nothing about its syntactic class ("he wanted to
sing", "he felt an urge to sing", "he was eager to sing", "he was down with
singing", need I go on).  

In favour of the position that _nado_ should be the head is that (iinm)
Russian has the usual IE pattern of through-going dependent marking.  You
shouldn't have to switch the main verb of a clause to infinitive 'cause you
stuck an adverb on it!  Leaving out a mere adverb from a clause shouldn't
allow you to infer its elision (unlike in _yemu pet'_)!  

>> Perhaps it's germane what happens to these constructions if you change the
>> tense.  What's "he had to sing"?
>
>Then they use _byt'_ as an auxilliary, just like other copular or
>predicate adjective constructions.
>
>"Yemu nado bylo pet'." -> "He needed to sing." / "To sing was needed for him."
>"Yemu nado budet pet'." -> "He will need to sing." / "To sing will be
>necessary for him."

That too squares an analysis where _pet'_ isn't main verb, I think -- the
fact that you can just stick another finite verb in to bear the tense (in
place of my assumed zero present copula) without adjusting anything else...

>> One might object that one would expect _nuzhnoye_ for the adjective
>> ordinarily.  But the yod-less forms of adjectives survive elsewhere too,
>> don't they?
>
>Yes; they're used exclusively as predicates, or, for the neuter form,
>as productive adverb derivations (one *can* use the long-form
>adjectives in predicate positions as well, but never as adverbs). 

Mm, good, good.  So, by its form, _nuzhno_ is either 
(1) a predicative neuter adjective, or
(2) an adverb.
That beautifully fails to decide the issue.  (1) is my proposed analysis
(_nuzhno pet'_ "it *is necessary* to sing"); (2) is yours.

I suppose that what we really have here is an instance where the headedness
of the construction is ambiguous, perhaps because it's being reanalysed. 
(Happens all the time, of course; couldn't grammaticalise without it.).  If
you want to view _pet'_ as the head I guess you say the infinitive is
serving as a debitive mood here, and then _nado_ really is just a
reinforcing adverb...

Alex

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