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CONLANG  February 2012, Week 4

CONLANG February 2012, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Shortcuts on phonology?

From:

Sam Stutter <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:17:27 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (101 lines)

And if you fancy going into phonology / phonetics at a later date, I find the best way is not to learn sounds by listening but by analysing how each is formed, which makes it a lot easier. /f/ = unvoiced bilabial fricative = place teeth on bottom lip, exhale without getting the vocal cords involved, etc, etc.

Sam Stutter
[log in to unmask]
"No e na il cu barri"



On 28 Feb 2012, at 20:23, Peter Collier wrote:

> You're mixing-up phonology with phonetics.
> 
> Providing your language is static, in the sense that you are not
> implementing any diachronic sound changes that might make such detail
> important,  I'd agree the phonetics aren't particularly critical. It doesn't
> matter HOW the speakers of a language articulate an /f/, be it [f], [v_0],
> [p\], [B_0], [T]... whatever. But it IS important, surely, that you know
> that the language even HAS an /f/?
> 
> Phonology: My language has some kind of an eff sound.
> Phonetics: My language has a voiceless bilabial fricative.
> 
> To extend your analogy to breaking point, by ignoring phonology altogether,
> your car design isn't just ignoring the paintjob, it is ignoring the metal,
> rubber and plastic.
> 
> P.
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Gary Shannon
> Sent: 28 February 2012 18:02
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Shortcuts on phonology?
> 
> My approach to conlanging is to not do phonology at all. Ever.
> 
> The way I figure it is that phonology is the least important part of a
> language. Any widely used language has no single standard phonology.
> Boston English, Cockney English, Texas English, Liverpool English, Australia
> English, Bombay English, all have vastly different phonologies, and yet are
> all mutually intelligible. Clearly phonology has nothing to do with
> "language" and everything to do with "dialect"
> or "regional accent".
> 
> If you want to add regional accents and dialects to your conlang then by all
> means, dip your toes into phonology. But to define a LANGUAGE, phonology is
> far from necessary.
> 
> Now I DO find phonology interesting. It's fascinating to read about, listen
> to, and study the regional variations of English and Spanish, the two
> languages I'm familiar with. But again, phonology really only applies to
> language if you are talking about a language used by a single small cultural
> group in a single small region. Any widespread language simply has no such
> thing as A phonology.
> 
> A certain conlanging forum which shall remain un-named seems to conflate
> "phonology" with conlang to such an extent that the posts there seem to be
> nothing but "here's my new conlang" followed by an enumeration of a
> phonology. That's like saying "here's my new sports car design" followed by
> a few paint chips for the interior and exterior color scheme. Where's the
> engine? Where's the drive train?
> Where's the wheels? Who cares about what color you paint it after it's done.
> And who cares how your conlang is pronounced in different regions of the
> world? It's not a language until it has a grammar and a lexicon. Phonology
> is just a superficial paint job on the surface.
> 
> (End of my annual phonology rant for 2012. The conlang airwaves are again
> safe to visit until February 2013. For historical perspective, here is my
> annual phonology rant from 2004:
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0404B&L=CONLANG&D=0&P=11
> 611
> )
> 
> --gary
> 
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 9:13 AM, Daniel Burgener <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>> I find grammar, morphology, and pretty much everything about language 
>> that I've learned except for phonology to be absolutely fascinating.  
>> However, as someone with no linguistics training, phonology just gives 
>> me a really hard time.  Whenever I try to start a new conlang, I 
>> usually start with phonology, and get bored and stopped before I get 
>> it looking like I want it.  My central problem is that I have trouble 
>> making a phonology interestingly different from English, partially 
>> because I have a lot of trouble pronouncing most non-English phonemes 
>> (In terms of consonants, essentially I can pronounce English, the 
>> German ch, and dental stops  For vowels, I generally can't tell them apart
> at all).
>> 
>> Lately I've found myself wishing I could just skip the phonology 
>> section or take care of it in a few minutes and get on to the 
>> interesting parts right away.  Are there any shortcuts I could take 
>> that would allow a non-linguist to quickly create a phonology that's 
>> interesting, easy for someone with only experience in English, German 
>> and Spanish to pronounce, and not totally "cookie cutter"?
>> 
>> Thanks.

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