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CONLANG  February 2012, Week 4

CONLANG February 2012, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Reverse genative?

From:

Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:45:11 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (116 lines)

>
> So, using the Ge-ez morphology:
>
> car-a the man
> and
> the man car-a
>
> both meet my criterion.
>

ok, i think i get it, so -a is just the construct marker for ge'ez?
akkadian sometimes uses -i like that.

would ge'ez still have the afro-asiatic golden rule that the
construct-state possessee always always always *directly* precedes the
possessor?  unfortunately ethiopic is still on my to-do....the reason i ask
is because, in arabic, hebrew, akkadian, and the egyptian languages, this
is a requirement that can never be violated and may be of relevance.

matt

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Regardless of what is going on in the Arabic example, which looks like it
> may, indeed, be something other than preciely what I had in mind (though
> aslo quite interesting); in the Hebrew and Ge'ez examples it is quite clear
> that the -t (in Hebrew) and the -a (in Ge'ez) are marking exactly what I
> was thinking about.  And word order isn't really relevant to what I wanted
> to explore (at least I didn't intend it to be).  the only relevent bit is
> that the relationship possessor-possessed is marked, not on the possessor,
> but on the possessed.
>
> So, using the Ge-ez morphology:
>
> car-a the man
> and
> the man car-a
>
> both meet my criterion.
>
> Adam who is enjoying the info flow
>
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:18 PM, Matthew Boutilier
> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Nope -- analyse as follows:
> > >
> > > sayyārat-u (a)l-rajuli
> > > Car-CONS man
> > >
> > > The construct state marks possessee, ie reverse genitive as Adam asked
> > > for.
> > >
> >
> > yes, true. but the word-order is still backwards with respect to his
> > example.
> >
> > and, few semitic languages have construct states that undergo changes as
> > drastic as in hebrew (cf. dā*b*ār / d’*b*ar = "word" / "word of").  in
> > arabic, when you aren't pedantically speaking with the tanwīn
> > case-markings, there's rarely an actual "construct"-marking at all.
> >
> > kalb
> > dog
> > "dog"
> >
> > kalb al-rajul
> > dog the-man
> > "the man's dog"
> >
> >
> > so, in my opinion at least, to call this "possessee marking" seems hardly
> > appropriate. what you notated as "-CONS" does serve that purpose, but the
> > /u/ is truly nothing more than the nominative definite ending, which
> itself
> > is not obligatory.
> >
> >
> > matt
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 11:57 AM, Eugene Oh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > On 24 Feb 2012, at 16:52, Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:09 AM, Matthew Boutilier
> > > > <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> This kind of possessee marking is common in Afro-Asiatic languages.
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> it is?? following is the construct state example in arabic:
> > > >>
> > > >> sayyāratu (a)l-rajuli
> > > >> car-NOM the-man-GEN
> > > >>
> > > >> which seems to be the syntactical reverse of what adam is looking
> for.
> > > >>
> > > >> matt
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Indeed.  This is completely opposite of what I meant.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Nope -- analyse as follows:
> > >
> > > sayyārat-u (a)l-rajuli
> > > Car-CONS man
> > >
> > > The construct state marks possessee, ie reverse genitive as Adam asked
> > > for.
> >
>

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