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CONLANG  February 2012, Week 4

CONLANG February 2012, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Phonology Imitation

From:

Eugene Oh <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 25 Feb 2012 21:55:03 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (121 lines)

But if some Englishes allow for [stju:dnt] (can't insert the syllable diacritic), then surely stubn is not that far-fetched (:

Eugene

Sent from my iPhone

On 25 Feb 2012, at 21:29, Dirk Elzinga <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I recently presented a workshsop on language construction, and I took the
> first approach--I had the workshop participants come up with twenty or so
> "words" in their language and then reverse-engineered phonological
> inventories and syllable structure from that. I think it worked pretty
> well, though some of the participants were kinda stressed out about having
> to come up with twenty words spontaneously. After seeing what they came up
> with, I realized that one danger of this approach is that people who are
> linguistically naive tend to reproduce something like English. This is
> where the second method can come in handy. After creating a few words and
> distilling inventories and syllable phonotactics, you could add sounds that
> are "obviously" missing, and to refine the syllable canon and phonotactics.
> But I am firmly of the opinion that the phonology should be intuitive,
> rather than planned--at least in its initial stages. All of the languages I
> have ever pursued beyond a simple one-page sketch started with a word or
> several words that I thought sounded Just Right. For Miapimoquitch, that
> word was [tɨβa]. For my current perpetually nascent project that word is
> [stubn̩]. It's been a lot of fun to try to imagine what kind of language
> would allow a word like [stubn̩] in itǃ
> 
> Dirk
> 
> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Peter Collier
> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> 
>> Broadly speaking there seem to be two different approaches to language
>> construction. One is to coin some vocabulary and then to look at what you
>> have and  "reverse-engineer" a language from it. The other is to work at a
>> phonological level rather than a lexical one, i.e. to work out how the
>> language is screwed together first and then see what it leads to. By
>> necessity, the "what-if" type conlangs - Brithenig and the like - would
>> have
>> to be of the second type.
>> 
>> My own project is of the latter type so I don't have any experience of
>> working the other way around, but logically  there must come a point where
>> things have to start getting a little more fixed and any new coinings start
>> to comply with words you have already created, otherwise the thing is going
>> to just keep on expanding to a ridiculously unwieldy state.
>> 
>> As to making one language "feel" like another, it seems to me you need
>> several things. Firstly, you need to have similar phonologies and
>> phontactics. If you want something that sounds Germanic, you are going to
>> need more fricatives and afficates in your phonology, a larger vowel
>> inventory, and rules that allow for syllables with large consonant
>> clusters.
>> If you are looking to make something Romanic you'd want to be having more
>> limited consonant clusters, fewer or no reduced vowels and so on.
>> 
>> Secondly, the conlang's  grammar and syntax would need to be similar. If
>> you
>> were trying to create a language  that felt like English, you wouldn't want
>> to have grammatical gender and adjectival agreements. If you want something
>> of a Finnish feel, you'd need to be thinking about cases.
>> 
>> Finally, orthography. To my mind this is the last thing you should
>> consider,
>> not the first, as it has nothing at all to do with the mechanics of the
>> language. It is  just an arbitrary arrangement of symbols for encoding the
>> language in writing. However, that said, if you are trying to mimic the
>> feel
>> of a language you need to mimic its orthography. When you look at a
>> Brithenig it appears at first glance to be Welsh and that’s part of what
>> makes it such a delight.
>> 
>> So my suggestion would be to look at the language(s) you want to emulate,
>> determine what it is that gives them their "feel," and then use those
>> aspects to lay down some founding criteria for your creation. Do that
>> before
>> you do anything else. Then it’s a question of creating a language within
>> those self-imposed constraints.
>> 
>> P.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>> Behalf Of Ian Spolarich
>> Sent: 25 February 2012 03:56
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Phonology Imitation
>> 
>> I distinctly remember a thread here or somewhere where the poster had
>> talked
>> a bit about mimicking natural languages' phonologies in a conlang. I can't
>> seem to find the email, so I thought I'd ask here: how does one truly make
>> a
>> conlang sound like another language or specific phonology?
>> 
>> The thing is, when *I* conlang, I don't usually think about how one word
>> will sound in context or what not, I usually think about what phonemes I
>> can
>> use and what sounds good. For one of my langs, "Csatau," I'm mimicking to
>> an
>> extent the Hungarian language--I have done so fairly easily in the
>> phonology
>> inventory (as well as the orthography, but really, who doesn't love the
>> Hungarian alphabet? Although it should be noted that there is a
>> corresponding native script and a script in another con-script made of
>> Greek
>> and Cyrillic letters... it's a complex country.), but I'm not sure how to
>> achieve the overarching aesthetic "feel" of Hungarian.
>> 
>> Also, besides making a conlang sound like I want it to sound, I tend to
>> have
>> trouble pronouncing the language--not because of the phonology but because
>> of the sequence of sounds. For example, I had to change my numbers
>> (originally "ská elt vec fört tüks fausz sal sval dvan..." to "ská elt föt
>> tüks fau pes sval dvan") to make them easier to pronounce. Anyway, does
>> anyone have any good tips on achieving a unified sound consistent across a
>> whole language?
>> 
>> -Ian Spolarich
>> 

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