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CONLANG Home

CONLANG  March 2012, Week 1

CONLANG March 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:26:51 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (176 lines)

--- On Wed, 2/29/12, Nikolay Ivankov <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Well, several years ago I played with an idea of a humanoid
> race
> using radio waves for communication. Not particularly new
> thing, but still.
> To be honest, I've became interested in birds because of a
> conculture of
> humans that - by an idea of my co-autor - were supposed to
> sing their language. 

Ah. Opera!

> To make the things even worse, I proposed to make many vowels,
> many tones and only 2 real consonants: voiced glottal stop
> and voiced
> bilabial click. So, in fact, the tongue was used only to
> make high/low
> vocals, which is almost nothing.

Well, makes remembering all the consonants easy-peasy!

> Thus, if their word for speech  had
> something to with the organs, then it would be cognate
> rather with "throat"
> or "lips" than with "tongue". 

Sure, thought we'd just call it a language anyway.

> However, an analogy with birds would
> inevitably come to mind if the language is designed this
> way, therefore my question.
> 
> 
> > If your bird-people communicate in a roughly analagous
> way to us, whether
> > or not they use or even have tongues, they're using
> language. I have some
> > bird-people in the World, but I know nothing at all
> about how they talk
> > or what their languages are like. I suspect it's quite
> different than the
> > other speaking races, who are mostly hominids of some
> sort. How much effort
> > is made in understanding each other is also an open
> question -- perhaps
> > they decided long ago that communication just wasn't
> possible and that if
> > complete annihilation of the blundering oafs on the
> other side isn't
> > practical, then studied avoidance might be best...
> >
> 
> In the human-populated conworld in which the culture I've
> been talking
> about lives the races went so far from each other, that some
> of them are
> just unable to hear what the others say - just like chimps
> do not really
> hear the human speech, because they ears are tuned for
> higher frequencies.
> So they had to invent an interlingua that is entirely
> written. Well, an
> idea of an entirely written language came first, of course.

Now, that's interesting! Two peoples that not only have to try and figure
out each other's language, but can barely hear each other!
 
> By the way, can I read something of your fiction?

Sure! I don't have much online. A little bit is here: http://www.frathwiki.com/The_World

There's some snippets of a couple languages as well as some examples of
music from the World, which I think actually turned out pretty well. I
should put some images as well...

A couple short stories set in the World are in a short story collection I wrote, Theatre of the Mind (Chris Brown), available at Amazon or Lulu. 
Otherwise, quite a lot of articles and snippets can be found here in the 
archives of Conlang or else Conculture.

> > Can always use their own word for that colour.
> 
> Right, that's what is done sometimes. [...]
> Still, introducing a new notion may be quite a task for the
> reader - one
> may end up with a text, that is becoming more and more
> unintelligible.

This is certainly a risk -- but it is a risk to bring before an audience
ány work of fiction where the world is not Earth and the people are not
humans. This is where the writer has to make choices about how to present
an alien world and alien peoples. How much is too much, sort of thing.

> Though, my problem was that mine were unintelligible from
> the very beginning.

A harder task for you to make sense for the rest of us -- but I think quite
often more rewarding for the intrepid reader!

> At least, the author have an ark of refuge for their ideas:
> appendices. I
> was really quite surprised to learn that Frodo and Bilbo
> were in fact Froda
> and Bilba, and the final -a was replaced by -o only not to
> make a gender confusion. 

I wasn't aware of that! Though it makes sense -- -a is the typical 
MASCULINE ending in Germanic languages, derived from PIE -o; while -a
is the typical Latin/Romance FEMININE ending. We've (in English) quite
forgotten our -a stem masculines, while names or things in -a are almost
universally interpreted as feminine based on our contact with Italian
and Spanish.

> In the internet era the authors are not even dependent on the
> publishers: if a publisher is to greedy to waste paper on a
> seemingly
> unimportant crap, the author can just place the appendix on
> a personal
> website and feel her or his duty to the conworld fulfilled.

Or one can simply go over the publisher's head by self-publishing. This
way the author has and keeps total control over the content.

> I find it really encouraging.

It is indeed.  Even though the down side is an almost frightening array
of self published pseudo-academic books of questionable content...

> > Well, in the heat of battle, what's important is
> communicating things like
> > "you lot run towards that lot and kill as many of the
> bastards as you can"
> > or "run away!" Niceties of grammatical mood or person
> or fiddly adjectives
> > would only get in the way. A distinct bugle or fife
> tune that has a
> > definite meaning is indeed part of the language.
> >
> 
> Well, you do not need a train to get to the kitchen. Yet,
> you'd consider the train if the kitchen you need is in another city.

Or you can simply avail yourself of the dining car!

> Tamtams in Africa
> were the most efficient way to communicate in the jungle -
> so the
> "language" became complex enough to inform everyone about
> the death of George IV.

Indeed! A sort of sonic telegraph.

> Were drums and bulge the only way to transfer information in a
> complex society, I think we could have had a blare-tabored
> love poetry within decades, centuries at most.

Perhaps sooner! The history of trumpets and drums, especially kettle drums,
in the modern orchestra is intimately connected with the bugles and
drums of the army and the noble households of Europe. It didn't take long
to go from a purely martial idiom to instruments quite capable of tender
melodic playing.

> > > And I'm afraid this gives me an idea...
> >
> > Oh dearie me!
> >
> > Ideas can be dangerous things...you be careful there! :)
> 
> No panic! I've already forgotten it ^)

Well, I hope you can find it again! I was curious to find out what it was!

Padraic

> Kolya

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