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CONLANG  March 2012, Week 3

CONLANG March 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Information-question words in subordinate clauses, indirect speech etc.

From:

Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 17 Mar 2012 09:24:59 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (75 lines)

Hello everyone!!!! And many, many thanks for all the messages of encouragement. This is the first time I've felt like getting on the computer (I'm still in the rehab place, which is very nice-- I think about a week longer.)  Discovered there were 500+ msgs, almost all from Conlang, and have so far deleted about 180 of them. Will check out the listserv archive when I have more time.

With respect to Jim Henry's message--

From: Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 11:36 AM
Subject: Information-question words in subordinate clauses, indirect speech etc.

How do information-question words (like "who", "where" etc. in
English) work cross-linguistically in indirect speech and subordinate
or relative clauses?  Especially in languages where relativizers don't
have the same form as question-words, as in English?

RM: this is a problem in Indonesian as well as in Kash....
For instance, in the equivalents of:

1. Where is the restroom?  INDO; dimana dibelakang?  similar in Kash

2. "Where is the restroom?" he asked. 
RM: need 2 clauses for this in both, with quote marks in print, a slight pause in speech:  " dimana dibelakang?"  ia bertanya

3. He asked where the restroom was.
RM similar to #2: ia bertanya dimana dibelakang. 

4. I didn't know where the restroom was.
RM 2 choices: 1(probably most colloq.). tidak tahu dimana.etc.  or 2. tidak tahu tempat (' place') belakang.
In Kash, #2 would be much preferred: 
Ta ma/kaya yurun 'RESTROOM'    
not I/know  place    .....

--- would your conlang, or the natlangs you're familiar with, use the
same word for "where" in each case?  Would #3 and/or #4 use a
relativizer instead of an interrogative...,

NO, except as noted in #4

 ...or would a relative "where"
be restricted to situations like

5. This is the house where Shakespeare was born.
RM: This is the problem area both in Indo. and Kash.

Indo: ini rumah dimana S. lahir -- (lit. "this (is) house where S. born") might occur but isn't considered " good".
Standard grammar: ini rumah yang S. lahir dalam/nya
                           This house RE  S.  born    in-it

Both langs. have the same problem when the relativizer is in one of the oblique cases-- whose, to/for whom, from whom etc.  You use the regular relative marker (Indo. yang, Kash re) with a resumptive pronoun or prep.phrase--

 'this is the man whose house we bought' 
Indo: ini orang yang rumah/nya kita beli.
       this man REL house/his   we   buy    ----- Indo has the added complication that when you relativize on a DO, the verb in the rel. clause has to be (technically) passive.  No such problem 

Kash:  tayu kash     re     mi/(bought) puna/ni
           this  person REL  we/bought  house/his

With a dative:
" this is the man to whom I gave the book" 

Indo. ini orang yang saya mem/beri buku itu  kepada/nya 
      this  pers. REL     I    CT/give   book DEF    to/him

Kash: tayu kash  re     ne       ma/(gave) etengi/ni
          this  man  REL 3s-DAT I(gave)    book/DEF
 
JH:gjâ-zym-byn has distinct relativizers and interrogative particles.  So
far it uses the interrogative in sentences like #1 and #2, and the
relativizer in ones like #5, but I'm not sure what's the best/most
natural way to handle #3 and #4; I'm leaning toward using the
interrogative for #3 and maybe for #4 as well, but I can see reasons
for using the relativizer instead, especially for #4 and maybe for #3.

Well as you can see, at least one natlang has to go roundabout in certain cases..I've always thought it was awkward, and often had trouble with it when speaking Indo.   

Hope there weren't too many typos, and as you can see, I forgot some Kash vocab. Have to finish this and send as they're pushing me to go to lunch.....

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