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CONLANG  April 2012, Week 1

CONLANG April 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 2 Apr 2012 16:47:17 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (177 lines)

But lisgor is pronounced as lizgor, and lizkor is pronounced as liskor.
Assimilation is a regular feature of Hebrew pronunciation.

stevo

On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 4:23 PM, Matthew A. Gurevitch <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

>  Dear Conlangers,
>
> Sorry to stay within the Semetic language family, but I know that Hebrew
> has those clusters.
> E.g.
> lisgor-- to close
> contrasts with
> lizkor-- to remember
>
> -Matthew
>
> P.S. This is my first post to CONLANG
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Miles Forster <[log in to unmask]>
> To: CONLANG <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sun, Apr 1, 2012 3:01 pm
> Subject: Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
>
> Okay, so far it sounds like Arabic might do what I have in mind. I'm
> only interested in natlangs that do this, because I want to see how
> natural it is. Are there no other natlangs that allow voiced-unvoiced
> consonant clusters?
>
> — M
>
> Am 01.04.2012 05:25, schrieb Matthew Boutilier:
> >> does assimilation occur in Arabic when consonants of different
> >> voicing are juxtaposed?
> >>
> > arabic does not have /p/, so, so much for that part of the question. this
> > is going to be a pretty non-technical answer, but after going through my
> > mental 'sound clips' i'm going to say that syllable final consonant
> > clusters (since the maximum syllable is CV(:)CC) do *not* have voicing
> > assimilation going on except for /r/, which has a voiceless allophone
> when
> > it follows voiceless consonants. thus
> > /badr/ "full moon" = [bædr], but
> > /fitˤr/ "breakfast" = [fɪtˤr̥]
> > contrast with, e.g., the voiced /ʕ/ and voiceless /ħ/ pharyngeal
> > fricatives, which are well distinguished after voiced and voiceless
> cluster
> > onsets alike:
> > /rubʕ/ "one-fourth" = [ɾʊbʕ], but
> > /sˤubħ/ "morning" = [sˤʊbħ].
> > same goes for [zt] vs. [st], etc. i'm having difficulty coming up with
> > examples ending in /ts/ and /tz/.
> >
> > matt
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:47 PM, MorphemeAddict<[log in to unmask]>
>  wrote:
> >
> >> I meant, does assimilation occur in Arabic when consonants of different
> >> voicing are juxtaposed?
> >>
> >> stevo
> >>
> >> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Padraic Brown<[log in to unmask]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> --- On Sat, 3/31/12, MorphemeAddict<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Arabic is rather fearless about juxtaposing different consonants. Does
> >>>> assimilation occur?
> >>> In Anian? No -- but I dó think that all the horrible clusters must be
> the
> >>> result of some kind of weird vowel loss back during the Old Oritanian
> >>> period. I don't know a whole lot about the language as of yet, so it is
> >>> possible that assimilations occur. I just don't know where or how or
> why
> >>> yet.
> >>>
> >>> Of the daughter languages, some undergo considerable cluster
> >> simplification
> >>> while one or two retain a high level of complexity. For example, Anian
> >>> "tcani" (rune or wise saying) becomes "cânis" in Hoosickite; "ctlapmi"
> >>> (leg) becomes "clamen". Pendarvian is said to retain the clusters.
> >> Hecklan,
> >>> if it turns out to be a relative of Anian at all, has certainly altered
> >>> some Anian words: Anian "hhtcrmîr" (city) becomes "cramion" in Hecklan.
> >>>
> >>> The history of Anian, which was the native language of Oriata, one of
> the
> >>> Archaic Empires of the Eastlands, has a history going back some 10 to
> 15
> >>> thousand years. As a language of philosophical scripture, it has been
> >> quite
> >>> resistant to change, and since the destruction of Oriata and the other
> >>> ancient empires in the region, it has long since ceased to be a spoken
> or
> >>> living language. In this respect, it is much like Sussian, another
> >>> philosophical language of the area, though perhaps not quite so old.
> >>>
> >>> Very few records of Old Oritanian are extant -- just some fragments of
> >>> monumental inscription -- and the syllabary used is not the same as
> that
> >>> of the later language. One fairly certain O.Or. word is
> >> HE-TUGQILLIMIILUN,
> >>> meaning "within the City". If that's the ancestor of "hhtcrmîr", then
> >>> quite a lot of vowel loss and other changes have happened within the
> >>> language!
> >>>
> >>> Padraic
> >>>
> >>>> stevo
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Padraic Brown<[log in to unmask]>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> --- On Sat, 3/31/12, Miles Forster<[log in to unmask]>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> are there any languages that don't make use of
> >>>>>> devoicing/voicing in consonant clusters? That is,
> >>>> are there
> >>>>>> languages in which a consonant cluster such as
> >>>> [sb] or [pz]
> >>>>>> is found and where these are distinguished from
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> assimilated versions [sp]/[zb] and [bz]/[ps]?
> >>>>> Anian would be the best bet for such a thing among my
> >>>> languages, but it
> >>>>> seems to studiously avoid VL+V consonant clusters (I'm
> >>>> not counting things
> >>>>> like K + L, because L and R (well, and other
> >>>> continuants) are typically
> >>>>> syllabic and so don't really form "consonant"
> >>>> clusters). For that matter,
> >>>>> it shares with other languages of the Eastlands a
> >>>> marked preference for
> >>>>> VL consonants. D is common enough, but B is rare and I
> >>>> don't think I have
> >>>>> a G in the lexicon. Has some Vs and perhaps one Z that
> >>>> I can find.
> >>>>> Anian is otherwise rather fearless as far as consonant
> >>>> clusters are
> >>>>> concerned. Some represent actual vowelless syllables: F
> >>>> is the most common
> >>>>> of the "consonants" that form syllabic segments:
> >>>> F-TANUM (trisyllabic)
> >>>>> would be distinct from FTANUM (disyllabic). M, N, L
> >>>> &  R commonly form
> >>>>> syllabic segments, either alone or in combination with
> >>>> one or more other
> >>>>> consonants. Others represent coarticulated stops or a
> >>>> sort of rapid fire
> >>>>> serial articulation of two or more stops. So, clusters
> >>>> like PKRINIO is
> >>>>> actually [p] and [k] said at the same time; but
> >>>> PTKRRTUM is [p-t-k]
> >>>>> enunciated separately but in very rapid succession with
> >>>> no intervening
> >>>>> vowel or other flow of air.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Padraic
> >>>>>
>
>
> --
> .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
> .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
>
>
>

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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 3
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January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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