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CONLANG  April 2012, Week 1

CONLANG April 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters

From:

Miles Forster <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 2 Apr 2012 23:20:05 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (185 lines)

Oh! I should've known better and asked for citations :P

Dammit.

Am 02.04.2012 22:47, schrieb MorphemeAddict:
> But lisgor is pronounced as lizgor, and lizkor is pronounced as liskor.
> Assimilation is a regular feature of Hebrew pronunciation.
>
> stevo
>
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 4:23 PM, Matthew A. Gurevitch<[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
>>   Dear Conlangers,
>>
>> Sorry to stay within the Semetic language family, but I know that Hebrew
>> has those clusters.
>> E.g.
>> lisgor-- to close
>> contrasts with
>> lizkor-- to remember
>>
>> -Matthew
>>
>> P.S. This is my first post to CONLANG
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Miles Forster<[log in to unmask]>
>> To: CONLANG<[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Sun, Apr 1, 2012 3:01 pm
>> Subject: Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters
>>
>> Okay, so far it sounds like Arabic might do what I have in mind. I'm
>> only interested in natlangs that do this, because I want to see how
>> natural it is. Are there no other natlangs that allow voiced-unvoiced
>> consonant clusters?
>>
>> — M
>>
>> Am 01.04.2012 05:25, schrieb Matthew Boutilier:
>>>> does assimilation occur in Arabic when consonants of different
>>>> voicing are juxtaposed?
>>>>
>>> arabic does not have /p/, so, so much for that part of the question. this
>>> is going to be a pretty non-technical answer, but after going through my
>>> mental 'sound clips' i'm going to say that syllable final consonant
>>> clusters (since the maximum syllable is CV(:)CC) do *not* have voicing
>>> assimilation going on except for /r/, which has a voiceless allophone
>> when
>>> it follows voiceless consonants. thus
>>> /badr/ "full moon" = [bædr], but
>>> /fitˤr/ "breakfast" = [fɪtˤr̥]
>>> contrast with, e.g., the voiced /ʕ/ and voiceless /ħ/ pharyngeal
>>> fricatives, which are well distinguished after voiced and voiceless
>> cluster
>>> onsets alike:
>>> /rubʕ/ "one-fourth" = [ɾʊbʕ], but
>>> /sˤubħ/ "morning" = [sˤʊbħ].
>>> same goes for [zt] vs. [st], etc. i'm having difficulty coming up with
>>> examples ending in /ts/ and /tz/.
>>>
>>> matt
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:47 PM, MorphemeAddict<[log in to unmask]>
>>   wrote:
>>>> I meant, does assimilation occur in Arabic when consonants of different
>>>> voicing are juxtaposed?
>>>>
>>>> stevo
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Padraic Brown<[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 3/31/12, MorphemeAddict<[log in to unmask]>   wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Arabic is rather fearless about juxtaposing different consonants. Does
>>>>>> assimilation occur?
>>>>> In Anian? No -- but I dó think that all the horrible clusters must be
>> the
>>>>> result of some kind of weird vowel loss back during the Old Oritanian
>>>>> period. I don't know a whole lot about the language as of yet, so it is
>>>>> possible that assimilations occur. I just don't know where or how or
>> why
>>>>> yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of the daughter languages, some undergo considerable cluster
>>>> simplification
>>>>> while one or two retain a high level of complexity. For example, Anian
>>>>> "tcani" (rune or wise saying) becomes "cânis" in Hoosickite; "ctlapmi"
>>>>> (leg) becomes "clamen". Pendarvian is said to retain the clusters.
>>>> Hecklan,
>>>>> if it turns out to be a relative of Anian at all, has certainly altered
>>>>> some Anian words: Anian "hhtcrmîr" (city) becomes "cramion" in Hecklan.
>>>>>
>>>>> The history of Anian, which was the native language of Oriata, one of
>> the
>>>>> Archaic Empires of the Eastlands, has a history going back some 10 to
>> 15
>>>>> thousand years. As a language of philosophical scripture, it has been
>>>> quite
>>>>> resistant to change, and since the destruction of Oriata and the other
>>>>> ancient empires in the region, it has long since ceased to be a spoken
>> or
>>>>> living language. In this respect, it is much like Sussian, another
>>>>> philosophical language of the area, though perhaps not quite so old.
>>>>>
>>>>> Very few records of Old Oritanian are extant -- just some fragments of
>>>>> monumental inscription -- and the syllabary used is not the same as
>> that
>>>>> of the later language. One fairly certain O.Or. word is
>>>> HE-TUGQILLIMIILUN,
>>>>> meaning "within the City". If that's the ancestor of "hhtcrmîr", then
>>>>> quite a lot of vowel loss and other changes have happened within the
>>>>> language!
>>>>>
>>>>> Padraic
>>>>>
>>>>>> stevo
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Padraic Brown<[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- On Sat, 3/31/12, Miles Forster<[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> are there any languages that don't make use of
>>>>>>>> devoicing/voicing in consonant clusters? That is,
>>>>>> are there
>>>>>>>> languages in which a consonant cluster such as
>>>>>> [sb] or [pz]
>>>>>>>> is found and where these are distinguished from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> assimilated versions [sp]/[zb] and [bz]/[ps]?
>>>>>>> Anian would be the best bet for such a thing among my
>>>>>> languages, but it
>>>>>>> seems to studiously avoid VL+V consonant clusters (I'm
>>>>>> not counting things
>>>>>>> like K + L, because L and R (well, and other
>>>>>> continuants) are typically
>>>>>>> syllabic and so don't really form "consonant"
>>>>>> clusters). For that matter,
>>>>>>> it shares with other languages of the Eastlands a
>>>>>> marked preference for
>>>>>>> VL consonants. D is common enough, but B is rare and I
>>>>>> don't think I have
>>>>>>> a G in the lexicon. Has some Vs and perhaps one Z that
>>>>>> I can find.
>>>>>>> Anian is otherwise rather fearless as far as consonant
>>>>>> clusters are
>>>>>>> concerned. Some represent actual vowelless syllables: F
>>>>>> is the most common
>>>>>>> of the "consonants" that form syllabic segments:
>>>>>> F-TANUM (trisyllabic)
>>>>>>> would be distinct from FTANUM (disyllabic). M, N, L
>>>>>> &   R commonly form
>>>>>>> syllabic segments, either alone or in combination with
>>>>>> one or more other
>>>>>>> consonants. Others represent coarticulated stops or a
>>>>>> sort of rapid fire
>>>>>>> serial articulation of two or more stops. So, clusters
>>>>>> like PKRINIO is
>>>>>>> actually [p] and [k] said at the same time; but
>>>>>> PTKRRTUM is [p-t-k]
>>>>>>> enunciated separately but in very rapid succession with
>>>>>> no intervening
>>>>>>> vowel or other flow of air.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Padraic
>>>>>>>
>>
>> --
>> .i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
>> .i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
>>
>>
>>


-- 
.i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
.i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla

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March 2006, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 3
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December 2005, Week 1
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March 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 1
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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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