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CONLANG  April 2012, Week 1

CONLANG April 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Languages with voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters

From:

Miles Forster <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 1 Apr 2012 21:00:31 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (135 lines)

Okay, so far it sounds like Arabic might do what I have in mind. I'm 
only interested in natlangs that do this, because I want to see how 
natural it is. Are there no other natlangs that allow voiced-unvoiced 
consonant clusters?

— M

Am 01.04.2012 05:25, schrieb Matthew Boutilier:
>> does assimilation occur in Arabic when consonants of different
>> voicing are juxtaposed?
>>
> arabic does not have /p/, so, so much for that part of the question. this
> is going to be a pretty non-technical answer, but after going through my
> mental 'sound clips' i'm going to say that syllable final consonant
> clusters (since the maximum syllable is CV(:)CC) do *not* have voicing
> assimilation going on except for /r/, which has a voiceless allophone when
> it follows voiceless consonants. thus
> /badr/ "full moon" = [bædr], but
> /fitˤr/ "breakfast" = [fɪtˤr̥]
> contrast with, e.g., the voiced /ʕ/ and voiceless /ħ/ pharyngeal
> fricatives, which are well distinguished after voiced and voiceless cluster
> onsets alike:
> /rubʕ/ "one-fourth" = [ɾʊbʕ], but
> /sˤubħ/ "morning" = [sˤʊbħ].
> same goes for [zt] vs. [st], etc. i'm having difficulty coming up with
> examples ending in /ts/ and /tz/.
>
> matt
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:47 PM, MorphemeAddict<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>
>> I meant, does assimilation occur in Arabic when consonants of different
>> voicing are juxtaposed?
>>
>> stevo
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Padraic Brown<[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> --- On Sat, 3/31/12, MorphemeAddict<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Arabic is rather fearless about juxtaposing different consonants. Does
>>>> assimilation occur?
>>> In Anian? No -- but I dó think that all the horrible clusters must be the
>>> result of some kind of weird vowel loss back during the Old Oritanian
>>> period. I don't know a whole lot about the language as of yet, so it is
>>> possible that assimilations occur. I just don't know where or how or why
>>> yet.
>>>
>>> Of the daughter languages, some undergo considerable cluster
>> simplification
>>> while one or two retain a high level of complexity. For example, Anian
>>> "tcani" (rune or wise saying) becomes "cânis" in Hoosickite; "ctlapmi"
>>> (leg) becomes "clamen". Pendarvian is said to retain the clusters.
>> Hecklan,
>>> if it turns out to be a relative of Anian at all, has certainly altered
>>> some Anian words: Anian "hhtcrmîr" (city) becomes "cramion" in Hecklan.
>>>
>>> The history of Anian, which was the native language of Oriata, one of the
>>> Archaic Empires of the Eastlands, has a history going back some 10 to 15
>>> thousand years. As a language of philosophical scripture, it has been
>> quite
>>> resistant to change, and since the destruction of Oriata and the other
>>> ancient empires in the region, it has long since ceased to be a spoken or
>>> living language. In this respect, it is much like Sussian, another
>>> philosophical language of the area, though perhaps not quite so old.
>>>
>>> Very few records of Old Oritanian are extant -- just some fragments of
>>> monumental inscription -- and the syllabary used is not the same as that
>>> of the later language. One fairly certain O.Or. word is
>> HE-TUGQILLIMIILUN,
>>> meaning "within the City". If that's the ancestor of "hhtcrmîr", then
>>> quite a lot of vowel loss and other changes have happened within the
>>> language!
>>>
>>> Padraic
>>>
>>>> stevo
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Padraic Brown<[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 3/31/12, Miles Forster<[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> are there any languages that don't make use of
>>>>>> devoicing/voicing in consonant clusters? That is,
>>>> are there
>>>>>> languages in which a consonant cluster such as
>>>> [sb] or [pz]
>>>>>> is found and where these are distinguished from
>>>> the
>>>>>> assimilated versions [sp]/[zb] and [bz]/[ps]?
>>>>> Anian would be the best bet for such a thing among my
>>>> languages, but it
>>>>> seems to studiously avoid VL+V consonant clusters (I'm
>>>> not counting things
>>>>> like K + L, because L and R (well, and other
>>>> continuants) are typically
>>>>> syllabic and so don't really form "consonant"
>>>> clusters). For that matter,
>>>>> it shares with other languages of the Eastlands a
>>>> marked preference for
>>>>> VL consonants. D is common enough, but B is rare and I
>>>> don't think I have
>>>>> a G in the lexicon. Has some Vs and perhaps one Z that
>>>> I can find.
>>>>> Anian is otherwise rather fearless as far as consonant
>>>> clusters are
>>>>> concerned. Some represent actual vowelless syllables: F
>>>> is the most common
>>>>> of the "consonants" that form syllabic segments:
>>>> F-TANUM (trisyllabic)
>>>>> would be distinct from FTANUM (disyllabic). M, N, L
>>>> &  R commonly form
>>>>> syllabic segments, either alone or in combination with
>>>> one or more other
>>>>> consonants. Others represent coarticulated stops or a
>>>> sort of rapid fire
>>>>> serial articulation of two or more stops. So, clusters
>>>> like PKRINIO is
>>>>> actually [p] and [k] said at the same time; but
>>>> PTKRRTUM is [p-t-k]
>>>>> enunciated separately but in very rapid succession with
>>>> no intervening
>>>>> vowel or other flow of air.
>>>>>
>>>>> Padraic
>>>>>


-- 
.i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
.i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla

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December 1998, Week 5
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