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CONLANG  April 2012, Week 5

CONLANG April 2012, Week 5

Subject:

Re: About Professional Conlangers I've Studied

From:

Nikolay Ivankov <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:58:13 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (177 lines)

Dear Mr. Willikers,

First of all, though it's not my prerogative to do this, I welcome You to
the list.

And, well, I'd like to say that I'm no real person to criticize. Who am I
to do that? Just a postdoc in one of the German universities, not even
careful enough to make his own website. I have a fancy separate office,
where sometimes I do conlanging instead of my primary occupation, and for
now I was only able to start TeXing a first sketch of my first more or less
developed conlang. Partly because of that, it is not an easy task for me to
be in the deadlines - set alone employing myself in humanitarian missions.
Nor am I somebody in the conlang mailing list - when I came here one and a
half years ago, I hardly knew the difference between tense and mood.

I wish I've had a hundredth of Your energy and motivation for the people
and for the conlangs. Moreover, I agree with You in many of Your positions.
But there are some moments, which, in my mind, do not quite fit this list.

One of the first things I'd like to mention is that in CONLANG we have a
"No Cross, no Crown" rule. I myself may find it quite restrictive
sometimes, but I appreciate its importance for keeping the list out of
floods and flames outside the linguistic discourse. You have mentioned a
handful of times that You are a Traditional Catholic. Well, I'm a Russian
Orthodox, so what? I don't see how the religion or other views of a
particular member of the list are relevant to the language creation, unless
the religion affects the language one speaks or creates.

Of course, this - to my point of view - irrelevantness of someone's
political or religious views is still not an NCNC stuff. But calling some
linguistic theory atheistic is, to my mind, at least nonscientific. And I
think everyone on the list will agree that conlanging has something to do
with the science, though in many cases the purpose is some fantazy
universe. But, as I see it, in near-scientific discussions, we may agree or
disagree with some theory on the basis of the established theory and the
data, but not the views of the creator of some school. Set aside mangling
their names. For, as far as I can see, a constructive critics is a much
better weapon that an abuse.

As the other fellows have already pointed out, conlanging in the list is
not about what we like or what we disgust. Yes, I personally feel that the
people are trying to fool me when they just write English with some fancy
characters (as in Star Wars) or words (like Skyrim Draconic), and I
personally like hieroglyphic and mixed systems. But isn't it just the
matter of taste. Isn't is the choice of the creator, whether her or his
conlang is to be over-complicated or over-simplified, regular or irregular.
Because to my knowledge there are natlangs of any kind - as relatively
simple as Spanish and regular as Turkish (for what I know), to such as
Russian or Ancient Greek. And as for Your comment on the orthography: why
not px for [p']? I mean it's ok not to like it. But then the orthography
for the the Creek language, with i for [e], e for [i:] and v for short [æ]
is as ugly. The Pinyin orthography should be as much awful, for many people
pronounce xiang just as [ksiang] and not as [s'an]. But, imho, I see no
problem in that. Accepting this is just the same as, say, accepting that
there is the same hieroglyph for the words "wheat" and "come" in Chinese,
and I personally have nothing against it. In the end, there is always the
IPA for writing how the word is actually pronounced. Maybe it's just an
amateur point of view - well, it's not for me to judge.

And, by the way, I use the letter q for [ø] and v for [ɨ] in my conlang.
Does it automatically make it a rubbish? Well, the answer is probably
"yes". Because in my eyes I'm not a conlanger, so I cannot be sure that my
orthography won't be too confusing. But that's my personal criteria applied
to myself only. When you say that someone is "not a conlanger at all",
which formal crititeria do you apply? It is possible to say that someone is
a linguist and someone is not by asking for their diploma in this field.
But for conlanging, I know none. For instance, I'm a captive fan of
artlangs, but it does not give me a right to talk of all the engelangs as
trash - I just don't happen to have interest in them, and that's all. When
coming to this list, people mostly have questions like: "How
logical/historical/insane can it be?", or "How can I make it logical/
historical/insane?", or "Where can I read about it?". And got the answers,
mostly in a very friendly manner. At least, that applies to me.

As for your last idea - I really do believe that the conlangs in movies
should firstly be natural, not simplistic. IMHO, that is just stands in the
same course of longing for naturalism that brought to the cinema first
plot, then sound, color, visual effects etc.. I thought it would be more
natural to hear that a language should first be natlangish from a man who
makes a hieroglyphic writing system for Martian and knows Hittite. Well,
sorry, it's not me to judge again.

I'm sorry for the longish, and, quite unwelcoming text, and looking forward
to see the references on Your publications.

Kolya

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Gimli G. Willikers <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> Here's what I know:
>
> (Background : I did most of the dicipherment work on 2001 Atlantean, did
> all thus far on Frommer's Martian 2012, and have a BA in Linguistics with a
> focus on absolutely everything - starting in about 2001, when I started
> studying not languages - too hard - but writing systems (languages came in
> 2006.)
>
> Frommer is no conlanger, but neither was Okrand.  Their heart wasn't in it
> like the guys I've seen on Zompist.  Okrand refused to do anything -
> anything - on Atlantean because "no one is interested in it", making me and
> handful of people "no body" in Okrand's checking book.  But this, sigh, is
> the academic mentality, at least regarding anything with a popular appeal.
>
> So I deciphered it and developed it without his help.
>
> Frommer has a blog and keeps in contact with his dicipherers, but he still
> forces them to dicipher his rediculously amateur and over-complicated
> conlangs - I did nothing on Avatar, but saw its dicipherment and was
> appalled - did he know anything about conlanging before he made Na'vi ?
>
> Both of them made up horrible orthographies : px for [p'] instead of pp,
> and Okrand's I and G and whatever - capital letters.  Atlantean fixed all
> of Klingon's problems, but very few people seem to have seem my work.  And
> my specialty is writing systems - and Klingon alphabet and Martian alphabet
> are terrible - they aren't even a priori, Klingon is based on Phoenician
> and Martian was based on Atlantean and upper-case Roman.
>
> I actually developed a hieroglyphic writing system for Klingon which I
> have yet to put online.  It wasn't hard, you just need to know how all
> hieroglyphic writing systems work and have some experience with them -
> which I guess is rare, thanks to atheist nihilist jerks like Chompsky.  (I
> really think the mainstream school of linguistics is retarded; my school is
> closer to the old West Coast school.)
>
> These guys in Hollywood are goons.  I don't think their movies are good
> enough to have conlangs, but even then they could get guys who care and
> aren't just in it for the money.
>
> So I'm sending a message by translating all of John Carter into Martian.
>  For free.  How's that for a standard ?
>
> When I read you guys talk about getting paid to conlang, I'm shocked.  You
> realize that hardly anyone would pay to read a book I would write on
> Hittite Hieroglyphic ?  But would some kid read it if I put it online for
> free ?  Yes, he would.  In 2001, I read the entire Ancient Scripts.Com and
> I looked up at the Ivory Tower and wondered why they didn't give a hoot
> about guys like me.
>
> Real science, real scientists, are dedicated to finding the truth and
> sharing it with others.  Conlangs may not be real languages, but they are
> the #1 way to learn any language, English included, and to learn
> linguistics.  And I want to help other people out so much, that I'm willing
> to produce tomes - search Scribd and wePapers for "Sumerian corpus" - on
> dead languages and linguistic topics so I can reach people who can't afford
> a $50 or $150 "ABC Etymological Dictionary of Old Chinese" -
>
> people like me when I was 14.
>
> people like all the people I've met teaching English in China and Cambodia
> and the Philippines.
>
> People who aren't lucky enough to be born in America or even have working
> internet most of the time, people who don't live in our world, but would
> learn if learning was more accessible.
>
> That's how I use my talents.  Dudes like Okrand can sell their books,
> dudes like Frommer can make us do the work for him, but that's not how it
> should be done.
>
> Here's a thought I recently had - if conlangers want good conlangs in the
> movies, they need to put them out there - like on Scribd or a website - for
> free.  Label them generically, like "Arabic-sounding villain language",
> "smooth and flowing alien language", "Chinese-sounding hero's language" or
> something, then attach to them instructions so simple that movie-makers
> could use them.  I realize this would involve making really simple
> conlangs, but it would probably work, and it would get things going.  Give
> them vocabularies of 5,000-10,000 words, so you could find some word if you
> wanted to.  Conlangs like this could even give you credit if they were used
> after your death, like a Picasso or a Rembrandt.  It could event be a
> cipher for English, but it would be better than nothing.  Conlangs can be -
> and should be - much simpler than German or French - or Xhosa.  But
> presentation counts for a lot.
>
> What is Chat OT Theory and Usage ?  That's too complicated.  What is OT ?
>  Why can't it be like Zompist, transparent ?
>

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July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
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July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
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May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
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January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
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November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
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October 2006, Week 1
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September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
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August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
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July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
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May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
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February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
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January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
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September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
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July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
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September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
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March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
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December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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