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CONLANG  May 2012, Week 1

CONLANG May 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Gender in First Person Singular

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 6 May 2012 01:18:39 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (62 lines)

Alex Fink, On 05/05/2012 17:37:
> On Fri, 4 May 2012 18:20:46 +0100, And Rosta<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>
>> The grammar generates sentences, which include some sort of
>> specification of the meaning they encode. Reference is a property
>> of utterances. So an utterance that invokes a sentence with "he"
>> but refers to a woman is anomalous, but not ungrammatical; the
>> anomaly may be due to ignorance of the grammar, or to a social
>> gaffe, or to something else. In the case of the sentence with "il"
>> and the utterance referring to a table, either (i) it's essentially
>> analogous to the English case, because just as the interpretation
>> of "he" is something that belongs to a category that doesn't
>> include women, so the interpretation of "il" is something that
>> belongs to a category that doesn't include tables, or (ii)
>> syntactically _il_ always occurs with a phonologically deleted noun
>> and there is no noun that means "table" and can occur with "il" and
>> hence there is no sentence that the utterance can be invoking.
>
> Phonologically deleted! The notion seems almost farcical to me. Has
> whatever theory that came from got itself so straitjacketed that the
> only way it can arrange to have a gender for _il_ to take up is by
> positing that it governs a noun, and the form of this noun isn't even
> zero to begin with but is deleted by a *phonological* rule?

"Phonologically deleted" meaning that it is present in syntax but its phonological form is suppressed, not meaning that it is deleted by a phonological rule. IOW, an instance of ellipsis. Ellipsis isn't farcical.

> On the topic of lexical and semantic gender, I've read that seemingly
> no natlang has purely lexical gender, in the following sense. Not
> only will the genders always have semantic correlates at least for
> some limited referents (e.g. for IE, this is among animates or at
> least humans, which are masculine or feminine according to their
> sex), but if there is a mismatch of morphology and semantics for one
> of these referents (e.g. Latin _nauta_ 'sailor', feminine, when it
> refers to a male), semantics always wins out at determining
> agreement.

So in French, in Christophe's Hillary example, in "le ministre est X", X takes feminine agreement?
  
> In view of this sort of thing I would be inclined to posit that, when
> a referent is referred to by a pronoun, the "underlyingly simplest"
> case should be the one where a pronoun is chosen without
> intermediation by a noun. In languages where gender is completely
> lexical I guess one can't avoid passing through choosing a noun, but
> that sort of procedure would seem to be a second resort.

I agree. I'm not persuaded that intermediation by a noun isn't necessary, but I do agree that if it isn't necessary then it's simpler to do without it.

Unfortunately I don't have sound intuitions about languages other than English. But I've spent well over 20 years thinking about "They [=bathroom scales] are" and "It [=balance] is", "They [=oats] are" and "It [=wheat] is".
  
> More generally, it seems to be popular to imagine that NPs which
> contain a noun are less marked, in various senses, than ones which
> contain a pronoun, but I can't at all see what makes this idea so
> compelling. I'd generally imagine it to be the other way.  

I can't really comment without understanding more about which popular idea you have in mind. I don't know much about theories of markedness -- which I guess find continuing existence in the typological literature, which I know little of.

In Generative Grammar of the last 20 years, NPs are DPs, i.e. Ds with NP complements. Apparently D-less nominals contain a null D. Pronouns are intransitive Ds. (D = determiner.)  

As for me (& English), I don't think null Ds are warranted, and indeed I don't believe in the existence of a category Determiner or of a category Pronoun as anything more inclusive than Personal Prounoun. Sometimes I think personal pronouns are a subtype of common noun, and sometimes I think they are a fusion of _the_ and a common noun. The 'left-periphery' of the English NP is an area of many mysteries.

--And.

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