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CONLANG  May 2012, Week 2

CONLANG May 2012, Week 2

Subject:

Re: A Brief Random Thought on Verbs

From:

MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 11 May 2012 03:13:26 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (236 lines)

On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 1:19 AM, Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Are all impersonal verbs idioms, then?
>

No. Idioms are words or phrases that have meanings that are not the sum of
their parts (decomposable into the meanings of their components). Whether a
verb is impersonal or not (in its primary, literal meaning) has nothing to
do with whether it's an idiom.

stevo

>
>
>
> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:12 AM, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > Idioms aren't broader meaning of words?  What are they then?
> > >
> > > Since you can use this verb to describe location of a large collection
> of
> > > items, from pencils to penicillin, I don't think I'd call it an idiom.
> > >
> >
> > Rather than say the verb describes location, I'd say it expresses
> > existence. There is no origin, no recipient, no subject except "es",
> which
> > is merely a dummy subject with no referent. Yeah, it's an idiom, and it
> has
> > almost nothing in common with "geben", 'to give'.
> >
> > stevo
> >
> > >
> > > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:07 PM, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > This use of "geben" ('to give') is an idiom. It does not indicate a
> > > broader
> > > > meaning of the word.
> > > >
> > > > stevo
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Casey Borders <
> [log in to unmask]
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > German uses a much broader meaning of the verb to give. For example
> > if
> > > > you
> > > > > wanted to know if there were a cinema nearby you would say:
> > > > >
> > > > > Gibt es ein Kino in der Nähe?
> > > > > Gives it a cinema in the nearby?
> > > > >
> > > > > Casey Borders
> > > > > On May 10, 2012 8:03 PM, "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" <
> > > > > [log in to unmask]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 10 May 2012 23:08, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How have you mapped the semantic space in your conlangs? Are
> your
> > > > maps
> > > > > > > systematic, or did they just happen?
> > > > > > > --gary
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is something I'm paying a *lot* of attention to for Moten,
> > which
> > > > is
> > > > > > why vocabulary building is so slow. As for how it happens, it's a
> > > > > > combination of conscious design and random chance :) .
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For instance, to take your "give" example, in Moten there are two
> > > > verbs:
> > > > > > _ja|zi|n_ and _joplej_. They both mean about the same thing:
> > > depending
> > > > on
> > > > > > which arguments they have, they can mean "give", "take", "get",
> > > > > "receive",
> > > > > > "put", "bring", etc. Basically, they have a general meaning of
> > > > > "transfer".
> > > > > > Both have exactly the same meaning, with only a single
> difference:
> > > > > > _ja|zi|n_ implies the transfer happens towards the speaker (i.e.
> > from
> > > > > > listener to speaker or from third-party to listener or speaker),
> or
> > > in
> > > > a
> > > > > > way that benefits the speaker, while _joplej_ implies a transfer
> > away
> > > > > from
> > > > > > the speaker (from the speaker to the listener or a third-party,
> or
> > > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > > listener to a third-party), or in a way that is detrimental, or
> at
> > > > least
> > > > > > neutral, to the speaker.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Another example is the verb _istu|l_, which means "to call, to
> > > summon",
> > > > > but
> > > > > > can also mean "to bring along". The verb _jeksaj_ means primarily
> > "to
> > > > > > touch", but it can also be used to mean "to hit, to run into, to
> > meet
> > > > by
> > > > > > chance". The verb _jo|zemej_ combines "to eat" and "to drink"
> > (Moten
> > > > > > doesn't make the distinction between those two). The verb
> _izgeboj_
> > > > means
> > > > > > "to work on sthg", but also "to tire from sthg" or "to suffer
> from
> > > > sthg".
> > > > > > Those last two meanings are also among the meanings of the verb
> > > > > _igmadevi_,
> > > > > > but that one means primarily "to get sick because of sthg, to
> wear
> > > off
> > > > > from
> > > > > > sthg" or even "to kill oneself with sthg".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And then there are verbs that are similar to English ones in
> terms
> > of
> > > > > > semantics, but swap the place of the arguments, like _iteo|l_:
> "to
> > > > > please,
> > > > > > to be liked by", _jelojmaj_: "to be thought of by", or
> > > _jelojmastu|l_:
> > > > > "to
> > > > > > be remembered by" (yeah, it's a compound of _jelojmaj_ and
> > _istu|l_).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And I can also mention the weird case of "to know", which doesn't
> > > have
> > > > > any
> > > > > > true equivalent in Moten. In Moten, the act of "knowing"
> something
> > or
> > > > > > someone is usually indicated by putting the manner by which one
> > came
> > > to
> > > > > > know in the perfect aspect. So if you know something because you
> > > > studied
> > > > > > it, you use the perfect of the verb _ivajagi_: "to study, to
> > learn".
> > > If
> > > > > you
> > > > > > know a place because you've been there, you use the perfect of
> the
> > > verb
> > > > > > _izunlaj_: "to be located". If you know someone because you
> > happened
> > > to
> > > > > > meet them once, you can use the perfect of _jeksaj_ mentioned
> > above.
> > > > > There
> > > > > > *are* two verbs whose meanings come close to "to know", but they
> > are
> > > > very
> > > > > > restricted in their semantics. Those verbs are _|li|n_: "to be
> > aware
> > > > of"
> > > > > or
> > > > > > "to know by instinct" and _jolnesi_: "to be an expert in, to know
> > by
> > > > > > heart".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Something similar happens with "to meet". The verb _jeksaj_ is
> > > > restricted
> > > > > > to indicate chance encounters. For planned meetings, one uses
> > instead
> > > > the
> > > > > > verb _ipe|laj_: "to see, to look at".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As you can see, Moten does quite interesting things with the
> > semantic
> > > > > > space, some somewhat similar to what happens in English, some
> quite
> > > > wild.
> > > > > > Some verbs have a wide semantic domain and cover various verbs in
> > > > > English,
> > > > > > while others only cover a fraction of the semantic space covered
> > by a
> > > > > > corresponding English verb. And yet, it all feels very natural to
> > me.
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> > > > > > http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available
> for
> > > order from Finishing Line
> > > Press<
> > > http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> > > and
> > > Amazon<
> > >
> >
> http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2
> > > >.
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> order from Finishing Line
> Press<
> http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> and
> Amazon<
> http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2
> >.
>

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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
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September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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