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CONLANG  May 2012, Week 3

CONLANG May 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Alien Conlang Bibles (was: A Whale of a Tale)

From:

Allison Swenson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 16 May 2012 23:23:23 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (121 lines)

Tolkien played around with the idea of reincarnation among the elves,
actually. In particular, he suggested Glorfindel (the elf who meets Aragorn
in the hobbits in Lord of the Rings after Frodo is stabbed by the
Witch-King) was the same Glorfindel as the one mentioned in the
Silmarillion as dying in Gondolin in a fight with a Balrog. Not quite the
same as being born again (they aren't actually born, just a new (adult)
body is formed for them), but similar to what you mentioned about Durin.

I think they'd directly equate Satan with Morgoth, actually. There's a lot
of obvious parallels--Melkor was one of the most powerful of the Valar who
led a rebellion of sorts against Eru's song in the beginning. In this
interpretation, Manwe could then be Michael the arch-angel... I suppose
Ulmo might be Gabriel? He was the Vala who spent the most time talking with
the elves, as I recall (although it's been a few years since I read the
relevant parts of the Silmarillion).

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 10:08 PM, Puey McCleary <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> Now onto translating the Bible:
>
> Even though none of us (probably) can go to the extent that the Wycliffe
> organization goes in translating the Bible, I still think itís interesting
> to look at their approach. Of course, their aims are quite different to
> ours. Theyíre seeking not only textual accuracy, but also something that
> could be used for devotion, research, or any other number of things.
> Theyíre not creating a work of art, which is what I would think any of us
> do with, say, the Babel text.
>
> Understanding the role of the Adversary, Satan, and the Devil in different
> books of the Bible and trying to put that into a different alien culture is
> really something thatís difficult for me to get my mind around. Part of me
> almost wouldnít want the Klingon veqlargh to be equated with those, but on
> the other hand, what would be the other options? From what I remember, he
> was the guardian demon of the netherworld where the dishonored dead went.
>
> The World may have more than one figure that corresponds to the Biblical
> characters, but I would also mention that Middle earth had Melkor, Sauron,
> and a whole host of fallen maiar whose precise powers and purposes Iím
> still not sure that I understand. How and why Ungoliant became a gigantic
> spider, Iím still not sure I know. Why and how did she procreate and have
> Shelob and the rest? And how could she have actually eaten herself? How
> exactly would the Quendi understand Satan? Is he some lieutenant of
> Melkorís that didnít get mentioned in the AinulindalŽ? When Men came over
> the mountains, they mentioned escaping from some dark force which is
> otherwise not mentioned in the Silmarillion. Can we imply anything from
> that?
>
> What I try to do with most translations, be it "Alice" or "The North Wind
> and the Sun" or even parts of the Bible is to treat it as a native text of
> the Dreamtime, the Land of Story. Everything in it should make sense in
> that context, and the language of it should be their own language rather
> than their language peppered with a bunch of proper nouns and concepts
> quite foreign to them.
>
> So, the end result should be fully a translation of the original, and yet
> fully a product of a fictitious culture, at the same time. I know thatís a
> bit of a contradiction, but thatís the goal.
>
> For instance, the version of "Alice" that Iím working on, has the exact
> same number of chapters as our version. Most of the sentences follow our
> version, with some variation for flora, fauna, puns and the like. One could
> compare them side by side. The poems tend to diverge a bit for language
> reasons. And the parts that do have to be changed try to emulate the style
> of the original.
>
> For "Alice" there were some fun ways to make the story true to its own
> culture without really touching the original text too much. So Princess
> Alixhlžnye was a member of the divine family, and the characters that she
> meet are either figures related to her or who have some connexion to her
> family.
>
> However, the "story" of Princess Alixhlžnye really ends up being that of
> the old Sorcerer who remembers the original Alixhlžnye and who tells this
> story to her niece, …fhelžnye, who will become the future Empress.
>
> So the context of Alice has been changed, though really the content of it
> hasnít been affected too much.
>
> Therefore, the intention with "Jonah" and "Ruth" would be to have a story
> that still is a faithful translation Ö and also an independent cultural
> artifact. They still have to have the same number of chapters and verses,
> and if a line has to be changed it has to have the same feel as the others.
> But itís almost cheating in a way to have a Bible text thatís a different
> shape than the original.
>
> With "Jonah" there wasnít much to change but some names and some minor
> details. The psalm in chapter two was changed to something that would be
> recognized as poetry. With "Ruth" Iím setting it among the Clockwork
> Heretics, so the style can be a bit freer. So far, though, itís following
> the original fairly closely Ö at least in spirit.
>
> This does, surely beg the question of how we should have a version of
> Alice, Jonah, and Ruth, and they should also happen to have one. No
> explanation is given in the story itself, nor should there be. Any answer I
> would give would be less satisfying than what the reader would supply.
>
> Iím not entirely sure whether Iíve explained myself terribly well there.
>
> ##
>
> There is another folk in Middle-earth who do get literally born again, and
> those are the Khaz‚d, or at least Durin was born again within his own
> descent, at least seven times. At least thatís the legend. From the
> Silmarillion, Iím not sure whether we learn that for a fact.
>
> But the Silmarillion is really presented as an Elvish theological or
> historical document, so itís rather vague on issues of what happens to Men
> after death, the real history of the Dwarves, and that one little scene
> with the Shepherds of the Trees.
>
> This does make me wonder how a warrior type folk like the Dwarves would
> interpret passages in the Gospels. Sure, the Elves are warlike in their own
> way, but the Dwarves seem of a much studier stuff, and Iím not sure theyíd
> like turning the other cheek or forgiving their brother seven times.
>
> ##
>
> Chapter Three of Ruth is a bit tricky so far. We have a marriage proposal
> custom that simply doesnít translate at all. Alas!
>

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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
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June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 3
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March 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 5
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February 2001, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 5
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