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CONLANG  May 2012, Week 4

CONLANG May 2012, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Syllabary wherein CV can stand for VC phonemically

From:

Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 24 May 2012 20:12:36 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (78 lines)

>
> IIRC, Akkadian cuneiform did just this very thing.
>

Nope. Akkadian had separate signs for /ka/ and /ak/ (and likewise across
the phonology) -- although respectively *these* could generally signify
/qa/~/ga/, and /ag/~/aq/, whose stops Akkadian differentiated phonemically
(probably because Sumerian didn't have /q/, AFAIK, and Sumerian's /g/ was
probably [ŋ]). And Akkadian cuneiform has many CVC signs anyway. Maybe you
were thinking of something else?

Yes, and this seems to me like a much simpler analysis.  Vowels the same as
> the last vowel can be dead, that's all you have to say.  Ockham wouldn't
> approve of you positing this reversal rule when you'd still have to have a
> deduplication rule on top of it.
>

Yeah. OK. Good point.

... Unless, that is, the onset /?/ //0// is unwritten, and initial /am/
> could be written simply MA, not A-MA.  Did you have thàt in mind?
>

Hmm. I was *thinking* it would have to be ?A-MA in the orthography (marking
the glottal stop like Hebrew, unlike German), with no A sign existing at
all (only ?A). Isolated MA = /am/ ... without the reinforcement of
vowel-agreement with a previous sign ... sounds somehow very confusing. But
context is good at resolving confusion. Hmm.

Yup.  It prefers its dead vowels to duplicate the _following_ vowel, e.g.
> A-TO-RO-QO = /ant_hro:k_wos/.  But, quoth WP without examples, it will let
> them duplicate the preceding vowel when there is none following.  Since
> simple codas (single sonorants and /s/) are just dropped, this rule only
> comes up with final complex codas /ps ks k_ws/.
>

Interesting! Yes Wikipedia just told me <panta> = PA-TA ... though you can
always count on Greek for other more unseemly consonant clusters. This is
fantastic to know, thank you.

matt


On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Thu, 24 May 2012 19:41:32 -0500, Matthew Boutilier <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >I'm wondering if there is any historical or pseudohistorical precedent to
> >using CV at the *end* of a syllable to *mean* VC.
> >In other words, for a syllable like /mak/, to use the signs MA-KA when the
> >sound sequence the writer has in mind is *ma-ak*.
> [...]
>  I suppose you
> >could conceive of it not as inversion but as the continuation of the
> >last-uttered vowel in a space where the orthography *demands* a vowel.
> Like
> >MA-RA-KU = /marku/ as* ma-r(a)-ku* rather than *ma-ar-ku*.
>
> Yes, and this seems to me like a much simpler analysis.  Vowels the same
> as the last vowel can be dead, that's all you have to say.  Ockham wouldn't
> approve of you positing this reversal rule when you'd still have to have a
> deduplication rule on top of it.
>
> ... Unless, that is, the onset /?/ //0// is unwritten, and initial /am/
> could be written simply MA, not A-MA.  Did you have thàt in mind?
>
> >(Does Mycenaean do something like this?)
>
> Yup.  It prefers its dead vowels to duplicate the _following_ vowel, e.g.
> A-TO-RO-QO = /ant_hro:k_wos/.  But, quoth WP without examples, it will let
> them duplicate the preceding vowel when there is none following.  Since
> simple codas (single sonorants and /s/) are just dropped, this rule only
> comes up with final complex codas /ps ks k_ws/.
>
> Alex
>

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