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CONLANG  June 2012, Week 1

CONLANG June 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Ot: German Pronunciation of "w" and "v" (was: Re: Dothraki Throne)

From:

Andrew Jarrette <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 1 Jun 2012 12:34:29 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (105 lines)

On Fri, 1 Jun 2012 15:04:15 +0200, BPJ <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On 2012-05-30 14:57, Larry Sulky wrote:
>> That's really interesting, Armin! I'm a native English speaker and as
>> far as I can tell, I form those two sounds identically, with little or
>> no lip-rounding.
>
>Sorry for late reply.  Noticed this post just now...
>
>The distinction here is probably not rounded vs. unrounded
>but protruded vs. compressed rounding
>
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundedness#Types_of_rounding>
>
>My Swedish and German accents are both native, having
>learnt them from each of my parents as a child, and
>while my German has protruded back and compressed front
>rounded vowels my Swedish has the exact opposite, except
>that the Swedish back vowels are more protruded the lower
>they are, with [u] and [ʉ] being fully compressed even
>to the point of having some lip-friction, [ɒ] being
>rather protruded and [o] being inbetween.  Swedish [ʉ]
>is actually rather front and open, so that it differs from
>[ø] mainly by [ʉ] being compressed and [ø] protruded.
>My German [ø] hovers eerily inbetween the two.
>
>Now IME from watching native English speakers on film
>English rounded vowels are neither strongly protruded
>nor strongly compressed, so that an English [u] is
>probably more compressed than a German [u], but less
>than a Swedish [u], and the same probably goes for [w].

My English /w/ (I'm a native speaker) is quite protruded in careful speech, less so in casual speech, but usually more protruded than the vowel /u/, which allows me to pronounce /wu/ (as in <womb>, <woo>, <woozy>) with the /w/ distinct from and more closely rounded than the /u/.  Some Britons pronounce /u:/ and /əʊ/ as [ɯ:] (or [ɨ:]) and [əɨ] with no lip-rounding at all, with the effect that they start to sound like /i:/ and /eɪ/ to my Canadian ears.  (And jokes have been made about the Queen pronouncing "host" as "haste").




>
>In that freakish Swedish accent which I learnt to speak
>from my grandma's neighbors' kids there is indeed a
>phoneme distinct from /ʋ/ which occurs where Common
>Scandinavian /w/ was postconsonantal -- including
>*/hw/, which has lost the */h/ so that /wɒːl/ 'whale'
>< _hvalr_ and /ʋɒːl/ 'choice' < _val_ are a minimal
>pair. That "/w/" is actually more like an approximant
>[β̞] -- I think <ψ> would be a nice symbol for it
>combining features of <ɸβʋ>. I've always used this
>sound for English /w/, and the [xʷ] /χ/ allophone of
>west-coast Swedish, which has very protruded rounding,
>for English /hw/, probably picking it up from my
>grandmother who had lived for over a decade in Chicago,
>and who used to speak English with me and my cousin
>when he reached that age when he started to pepper his
>Swedish with English words and phrases.
>
>There are no standard IPA diacritics for the
>distinction between protruded and compressed rounding.
>I've taken to using
>
><ʷ>    U+02B7 MODIFIER LETTER SMALL W
>         for protruded,
>
><ᵝ>    U+1D5D MODIFIER LETTER SMALL BETA
>         for compressed and
>
><ᶹ>    U+1DB9 MODIFIER LETTER SMALL V WITH HOOK
>         for intermediate when needed,
>
>so that my Swedish /ø/ would be [øʷ], my Swedish /ʉ/
>[øᵝ] and my German /ø/ [øᶹ] in somewhat narrow
>transcription. My Swedish vowels would be
>
>     iᶽ  yᶽʷ         [ʉᶹ]        uᵝ
>
>     e   øʷ  øᵝ      ɵᶹ          oᶹ
>
>     ɛ           [ɜ]
>
>     [æ]             ɞʷ
>
>     a                   [ɑ]     ɒʷ


I take it that in the above paradigm distinctions of length are not included.  Surely /i/, /y/, /u/, /ø/, /o/, and /ɛ/ have both long and short varieties that are phonemically distinct, not so?  And is [ɵᶹ ] in the above paradigm meant to denote exclusively Swedish "short u", while Swedish "long u" is denoted by [øᵝ] above?   It is interesting for me that as a native speaker of Canadian English, I know that vowel length is not phonemic in my variety of English, though some vowels are usually longer than others.  Only vowel quality is phonemic.  However in British English I have read that it has been proven that vowel length is indeed phonemic, being more important than vowel quality to distinguish some phonemes.


>
>The sounds in brackets are all in complementary
>distribution with allophones which contrast with
>each other in other positions:
>
>[ʉᶹ]    Neutralization of (short) /øʷ/~/ɵᶹ/ before nasals.
>         (But stressed short /øʷ/ doesn't occur otherwise!)
>
>[ɜ]     Neutralization of unstressed /e/~/ɛ/.
>
>[æ]     Register and lexeme dependent neutralization of
>         /ɛ/~/a/ next to retroflex consonants (and final
>         [ɻ] may be lost after it!)
>
>[ɑ]     Neutralization of most short /a/~/ɒʷ/.


Are you saying here that every /a/ is phonetically realized as [ɑ]?

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