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CONLANG  June 2012, Week 1

CONLANG June 2012, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Ot: German Pronunciation of "w" and "v" (was: Re: Dothraki Throne)

From:

Daniel Prohaska <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 7 Jun 2012 10:49:46 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (77 lines)

On Jun 6, 2012, at 11:49 AM, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:

> On Tue, 29 May 2012 19:43:42 -0400, Andrew Jarrette wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 29 May 2012 02:07:50 -0700, David Peterson wrote:
>>> -Several German speakers I've met pronounce English words
>>> beginning with "v" with a [w], despite the fact that German "w"
>>> is pronounced [v], *and* German appears to lack [w] as a
>>> consonant entirely. (And German "v" is pronounced [f], not
>>> [w].)
>> 
>> I feel that German speakers should be able to pronounce [w] and
>> distinguish it from [v] because their <u> in <sauer>, <bauer>,
>> etc. is pronounced the same as an English [w].  I know that it
>> is part of a diphthong, but that diphthong is the same as /aw/
>> in English <tower>, <shower> etc.  All they have to do is to
>> transpose the <u> in <sauer>, <bauer> etc. to initial position
>> before a vowel.
> 
> 
> I also occasionally confuse English /w/ and /v/.
> 
> With regard to English and German /v/, what I wonder about is whether
> they are phonetically the same. My guess is that they're
> not, but that German /v/ is really [ʋ] (labiodental approximate).

German ‹w› is regionally quite variable ranging from [v] through [ʋ] to [β], even [w] in places...

> It has considerably less friction than English (or French or
> Italian) /v/. I remember I had a very hard time imagining how
> early Middle High German [f] could possibly turn into [v]. Only
> when I realized that a proper [v] (like in English) is much
> closer to [f] than my German /v/ ([ʋ]), the Middly High German
> development became plausible to me.
> 
> An analysis of German /v/ as an approximant [ʋ] has other
> benefits: Unlike any other German lenis consonant (/b d ɡ z/),
> German /v/ ([ʋ]) requires voiced pronunciation. Phonotactically,
> it is most similar to /j/.
> 
> What I don't know is whether my impression that German /v/ is
> really an approximant [ʋ] could be but a regional phenomenon
> (South-Western or Swiss). Descriptions of German pronunciation
> that I have seen do not go into the exact phonetics of German
> /v/, and its unique voicedness is not mentioned. The only
> explicit analysis of /v/ as an approximant that I remember
> concerns Swiss German, but this is not very relevant to Standard
> German since the pronunciation is quite distinct (Nocchi/Schmid
> 2006: "Labiodentale Konsonanten im Schweizerdeutschen":
> http://www.pholab.uzh.ch/forschung/Nocchi_Schmid_2006b.pdf ).
> 
> 
> On Fri, 1 Jun 2012 13:41:52 -0400, Douglas Koller wrote:
> 
>> But I could easily see a moment where in a fit of pique "sie
>> säugte" might rhyme with "die Leuchte." :)
> 
> In Goethe and other classical authors, "säugte" rhymes not only
> with "leuchte", but also with "leichte" (for instance: "[...] sieh
> dies Zeichen / dem sie sich beugen [...]) -- rounded front vowels
> were not common until in the 19th century the Northern (Prussian)
> pronunciation became standard.
> 

Well, Goethe spoke with a distinct Frankfurt, Hessian, dialects… he rhymes:

Ach neige, neige du Schmerzensreiche. [ax nɑːʒə nɑːʒə duː ˌʃmɛtsn̥sˈʀɑːʒə].
Dan





> -- 
> grüess
> mach

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