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CONLANG  June 2012, Week 3

CONLANG June 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Ot: Language Envy and Language Pride

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:24:19 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (223 lines)

--- On Sat, 6/16/12, Douglas Koller <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> > --- On Fri, 6/15/12, Douglas Koller <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> 
> > > > For what it's worth, I don't much care for grammatical
> > > > gender either, nor do I see much point in having it.
> 
> > > Why must there be a point?
> 
> > No one ever said there did!
> 
> Oh, *you* said that. Sorry. 

Don't be sorry -- I simply never said there *has to be* a point! I said "I don't see much point" in a language expressing grammatical gender. It's my opinion. I didn't say that there "must be a point" in expressing 
grammatical gender. That would be an assertion of general fact!

> From a pragmatics perspective, I
> took "I don't see much point in having (here, gender)" as an
> invitation to the listener to rebut. 

Well, if you believe there must be a point, feel free to argue in favor! I 
might change my mind, or at least acknowledge the existence of the fact.

Since you're looking at this from a pragmatics perspective (which the Font
of all Knowledge tells me involves how context contributes to meaning), 
the context of what I said is simply my own opinion and perspective on the 
matter, not a general statement of fact or a positive argument or even 
(necessarily) an invitation to argue the issue.

> Here, say, with, "Well, actually, it's useful for keeping track of 
> arguments within and across propositions" or some such, which we heard
> earlier in the discussion. ( la A: "I don't see much point
> in the human appendix." B: "Well, actually, it was quite
> useful for digesting leaves..."// 

This actually works rather well as an example. If someone says they don't
see the point in having an appendix (or a heart or eyes or any other
organ), and you can demonstrate what its use (and therefore its point in
existence within the living organism in question) is, then you've got it
in one that there s in fact a point to having an appendix and that the
other person's opinion and whole statement is bunk.

If you can not demonstrate the underlying point (as can not be done with
grammatical gender), then leave the other person's opinion stand as the
opinion it is and certainly don't try to tell him he said something he 
didn't say!

> And indeed, grammatical gender *can* be useful to keeping
> track of arguments (as Mach just pointed out as I type
> this), and may get confusing if you're used to having it and
> are suddenly deprived of it (more on this below). But as for
> whether any grammatical feature has a *point* or not kind of
> depends on one's native natlang sensibilities and whether
> you're a glass-half-full or glass-half-empty kind of guy.

As a native English speaker, I don't see a point in having strong verbs
or a the/an dichotomy or any number of other things that English does. It 
is what it is. I happen to like strong verbs better than grammatical 
gender, but that's my opinion as well, not any kind of assertion of fact
nor a statement of relative superiority of one over the other.

> And as McWhorter, who I'm rarely in the habit of citing,
> points out: Yeah, feature X may make a seemingly delightful
> distinction, but it's hardly necessary. Other languages do
> without and survive, and so could you if you had to. 

Certainly. When I lived in Spain, I did without strong verbs and cheerfully
took on grammatical gender! Not a big deal at all.

> So, if grammatical gender offends thee, 

Seriously, you're reading fr too much into the simple opinion "I don't 
much care for"! I don't much care for the taste of coffee either. I am
nowhere close to being "offended" by it, or by coffee drinkers, or by
coffee growers / importers / marketers / baristas.

> smite it in your conlang
> project (this is not Padraic's argument, so I am neither
> rebutting nor setting him up as my straw man). But as for
> natlangs, the point is moot if you care to think there is a
> point to there being a point about such things (which is all
> I was saying). You can rail against it all you like like you
> can rail against the human appendix. Good luck with
> that.

Again, I'm not railing against anything! Although, I might start railing
against your insistence that I'm "offended" or "railing against" some
feature of any given language, when this is simply not the case!

> And from a pragmatics perspective, "I (or "no one") ever
> said that." means the pragmatics, which is often the first
> thing to go in an argument, is beginning to falter, and you
> have to wend your way back, more literally, to a point of
> common understanding. Hence my now overly winded
> explanation

*ALL* it means is that I did not say or even imply what you claimed I said.
There was never an "argument" to falter; there is no need for me wend my
way anywhere. 

> > As you say, it's just a feature. Anyway, can just say
> les maestres and have done with!
> 
> In English, we could just use Hungarian "" (morphed to
> phonetically fit, of course) for "he, she, it" and have done
> with it. But we don't. 

The problem here is in trying to graft a foreign fix onto English; while
"les XXXXX-es" is *already* a Spanish option.

> At any rate, in Andrew's concerns over grammatical gender, I
> don't recall his suggesting scrapping gender at the third
> person singular pronoun level. 

No, I do not recall that being a specific point of his. It is *English* he
is trying to conlang after all! I gather that his own distaste involves
things like "das schirm" v. "die schirm". Why not just "de schirm" (and
have done with it!)?

> I may be wrong, but that
> suggests to me that what he was really saying is that he
> doesn't mind scrapping it for inanimates and animals where
> we haven't "checked under the hood." But as a native speaker
> of English, he also doesn't seem to mind marking his mother
> as "she" (rather, he didn't specifically mention that aspect
> of gender marking being a drag). 

Right. That of course is natural gender, not grammatical gender. Regardless
of how a language categorises the word for "mother", the person is
biologically a female.

This is actually an issue in Talarian (which, yes, des have grammatical
gender): matar is an inanimate word, even though, obviously, the person
is an animate being and quite capable of acting with her own will and with
functional agency. Yet, her word in the language prevents her from being
spoken of in terms of grammatical will or agency. An -ar noun can *never*
act upon another thing -- by definition, an inanimate noun is always a
patient or an object and is unable to serve as an agent. So they get
around it with either a circumlocution or a special subdeclension that
offers animate endings for certain words that are "sensically animate" so 
matar can be the agent of a verb.

What we don't know is how his language works in this regard. I'm guessing
that it does just what English does -- no grammatical gender as far as
nouns go, but has gendered pronouns so that the natural gender of various
persons can be described and distinguished. (And presumably, if you
absolutely *must* indicate the natural gender of a noun, those same
pronouns could be pressed into service: she-wolf / he-wolf.

How he deals with the "poetic feminine" (ships, lofty ideals, whiskey and 
so forth) remains to be seen and discussed!

> I don't know without his
> confirmation, but I suspect he would find marking gender on
> first and second person pronouns unnecessarily complicated.

Could be. I think tht is kind of a cool feature (gendered pronouns --
not gendered nouns!), though I haven't implemented it anywhere yet. As for
Andrew's particular take on English, I don't think this sort of feature
would even be considered, because it definitely is unEnglish.

> Nor do I know if any of this is even on his radar. Again,
> not trying to build a straw man here, just saying that if
> one finds grammatical gender a bugaboo, you can move the
> ball even further down the field and do away with it
> altogether.

Well, sure, if he wants to move from doing away with grammatical gender
(which English already doesn't have, so moot, that) to doing away with
all recognition of natural gender (which English does do). I have the
feeling that his reformed English is nt headed in that direction.

> Again, I cannot plumb the depths of Andrew's mind, 

Nor I -- have enough troubles with me own!

> but I surmise that Andrew is suggesting that he wishes for words
> like "pyromania", an obvious loan, to be rendered something
> like "fireoverlyloveillness", 

Yes, that's how I understand it.

> whereas a word like "nice"
> might get a free pass 'cause it's been around a while and
> looks and feels pretty darned English to native speakers.

Well, this I'm not quite so sure about. I did ask him how far back in time
he would have to look in order to find his "pure English". I might posit
that Prim.Gmc. might not be far enough back in time, but I guess that's
whole nother story! I got the impression that he would really rather
have a good Germanic root formed according to English sound changes and
vagaries of borrowing, so "nice" might out regardless of how English a
native might think it is.

> And "they" is a pronoun, for goodness sake. 
> My sense, perhaps flawed, was that these were less of a concern if a
> concern at all for Andrew.

Yeah, I think you're probably right there. I gather that "Germanic
origin" is the overriding concern when "native English" words can not
be found.

> I do think I did set up a straw man with my crack about
> "chutney" and "karate", because I believe I found in review
> later that he doesn't mind loans coming in for concepts that
> may not have yet existed in the vocabulary/culture. But
> bring on the Kingly Wolken Might.

Could be -- I didn't catch his response to karate or chutney.

But as far as chutney is concerned -- that word dos come from a country
that speaks English! India has its own kind of English, and chutney is
certainly a regular part of the English language menu there, so I'm not
sure how that and other particularly Indian English terms might fit in
with his ideas on borrowing. After all, if American English borrows 
chutney from Indian English, is it really that foreign a borrowing?

> Kou

Padraic

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May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
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November 2006, Week 3
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November 2006, Week 1
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October 2006, Week 1
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July 2006, Week 3
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
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May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
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February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
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September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
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June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
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May 2005, Week 3
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April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 5
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August 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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