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CONLANG  June 2012, Week 3

CONLANG June 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Ot: Language Envy and Language Pride

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:32:00 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (83 lines)

On Fri, 15 Jun 2012 17:52:25 +0100, Michael Everson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On 15 Jun 2012, at 17:20, Alex Fink wrote:
>
>> No present natural language has an "ideographic scripts" as its current main script (though certain forms of proto-writing were ideographic). 
>
>Blissymbols does. It's the exception that proves the rule. And it has no phonology. And while it originated as a conlang, it is the only expressive language some people have. 

Blissymbols did cross my mind, but I didn't take it to be natural.  At any rate, it is an interesting case.  If a writing system isn't secondary to some other mode of its language, if it has the primacy that linguists like to accord to speech, then is the distinction of being ideographic or not a sensible one?  It's not representing ideas as opposed to the form of its other mode, it's just representing ideas 'cause that's what a language does.  

On Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:53:29 -0400, George Corley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> I can't say I understand why the collective response to Jarrette's
>> messages has been so negative.  
>
>English has plenty of interesting features to look at -- and it's
>possibly the most successful lingua franca ever.  

To be honest, that's a thing that annoys mè with my linguist hat on, and I do project the annoyance onto English sometimes.  That, now that languages can have global reach, English can go and "contaminate" _every_ other language on earth with borrowings and sweep its scythe quite broadly over global linguistic diversity.  

You know, if linguists of the year 2300 are looking for a language which has different semantic boundaries for the notions that English covers with, er, say, "society", it wouldn't surprise me if they can't find any, because it's all been globally homogeneised.  (This example on the grounds that, if I remember right what I read once, the Asian use of 社會 now basically calques the European use of "society", though there used to be less calquey terms till translators <melodrama>ruined everything</melodrama>.)

>> [...] the fact that the [Chinese] script has ignored the internal
>> divergence of the Chinese language family
>
>True.  I didn't jump on this because it's been said over and over.  I would
>argue that "internal divergence of the Chinese language family" is, in
>fact, not "ignored".  It just so happens that so many Chinese languages are
>never written in Chinese characters.  

True, I mis-cast that.  I guess that what I should have said is not so much that the writing system has ignored them but that Chinese culture as a whole has ignored them as writable.  Alright, and that's except for the cases you point to below, variously:

> Standards are a problem, due to the perception that Mandarin is "Standard
>Chinese", so only Cantonese has a written standard, and Taiwanese is
>written so inconsistently it's a wonder anyone can read it.

Cantonese, yes, Cantonese has a writing system.  As for Taiwanese, I'll reserve judgment and ask how inconsistent is it?  Have you examples?

>Those that regularly are (Mandarin,
>Cantonese, Shanghainese, Taiwanese), show their lexical and syntactic
>differences in the writing.  Written colloquial Cantonese, for one,
>contains characters that do not appear in Mandarin, though all of them use
>different characters where the lexica have developed in different ways.

Different characters?  I'm not sure I've understood you.


Hugo, I suppose I did jump on you a little.  Sorry about that.

On Fri, 15 Jun 2012 14:15:53 -0300, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>> >4. Complex, but yet rule-driven: The same as 3, but the context to be
>> >considered is far larger than the one in 3. There are several exceptions.
>> >English belongs here. One can even create a rule for "gh" pronunciation (If
>> >at the end of a word, preceded by V+"u", but the consonant preceding V+"u"
>> >is either "c","l", "r" or "t", then it is pronounced /f/. On the other
>> >hand, if the consonant preceding V+"u" is either "d","n" or "th", it is
>> >silent.);
>>
>> I think it's very bad descriptive practice to consider that the "rule", as opposed to just saying that -ugh has multiple readings and it's _lexically_ determined which one to use.  The initial consonant has nothing to do with it historically, nor anything in the minds of current speakers, as far as I can tell.
>
>I understand your point. I just wanted to say that English is somewhat
>predictable. 

Yes, this is true.  English is no Maggel; there are lots of correlations between sound and spelling, even if fewer are perfect than we'd like.  I like to point to http://zompist.com/spell.html when making that point.

Moreover, modern English spelling is very highly "predictable" in one sense if you compare it to, say, pre-15C English orthography -- we have such a notion as correct spellings!  Given a word, it'll be spelled the same way every time.  That's something that has been very much not the case, historically.  

><l> surely is not favouring /f/, but it is a way of
>creating these rules. 

But I still think it's not a good way, to start from the spelling as opposed to just the word.  It kinda clings to modelling the implicational relationships like this:
  lexeme --> phonology --> spelling
That model is all well and good if the spelling system is phonemic (and we allow it to collapse distinctions).  But the moment you have a single sound change that's a merger, not to mention the more complex funny business that English has engaged in, now all of a sudden you only have
  lexeme --> phonology
     |
     +-----> spelling .
There's still a strong _correlation_ between the right two members, passing via the proto-phonology, but nothing that rises to the level of an implicational rule.  And trying to drag that |_ arrow over to start from phonology will only result in duplicitous rules that should be lexical but try to disguise the fact.  

Alex

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