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CONLANG  July 2012, Week 3

CONLANG July 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: "Absolute beauty" (was: Calligraphy)

From:

Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 20 Jul 2012 13:47:37 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (197 lines)

There's no point in continuing this conversation.  It's off topic, and
you're too rude to talk to in a rational manner.  Once I get compared to a
racist for holding a particular ontological perspective, the conversation
is over and my email filter gets a little bit longer.



On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Matthew DeBlock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> > On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Matthew DeBlock <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> > On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Matthew DeBlock <[log in to unmask]>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> 1.A large portion of the artists most widly considered "amoung the
> >> >> greatest" were never accepted during their lifetime(the classic image
> >> of
> >> >> a
> >> >> starving artist). If there were absolute beauty, why would it require
> >> >> time
> >> >> to be recognized?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Well, why wouldn't it?  Just because it exists doesn't mean it's
> >> readily
> >> > apparent.
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes.. and same for that invisible palm tree in my living room.
> >>
> >> you have to have some kind of standard for what is worthy of
> >> investigation, and at the very least you should at least belive the task
> >> possible on some level.
> >>
> >
> > Is that standard of investigation absolute?  If it is, then why couldn't
> > there be absolute beauty as well?
> >
> > The difference between the palm tree and beauty is that we have both had
> > experiences of beauty.
> >
>
> yes.. relative beauty
>
> they key word here is "absolute"
>
> >
> >>
> >> Fine.. maybe not anyone..
> >>
> >> but it is a very sound assumption.
> >>
> >
> > It's a rude and disrespectful assumption to those who disagree with you.
> >
>
> So is the concept of "asolute beauty" to everyone/everything that doesnt
> fall within whatever boundry said person attempts to lay out.
>
> That would just happen to be those who disagree with me on this matter
>
> I "villanize" this because, as I say here, I see no difference between
> this and someone trying to discuss "which race is superior"
>
> Sure, they arent making any direct racist statements themself, so its ok
> right?
>
> >
> >>
> >> You suggest there could be genuine and sound philosophical reasonings..
> >> lets hear one?
> >>
> >
> > There's an entire school of philosophy that I can't summarize via email.
> >  You may be interested in reading Realistic Rationalism, by Katz, which
> > argues for absolute ideas (mostly mathematical).  Of course, the
> arguments
> > for Beauty as an idea are laid out in Plato, and the criticisms are laid
> > out in his Parmenides.
> >
> > Ultimately, the argument is complex, but in a very simple form: Objects
> > appear to have qualities.  In fact, two separate objects may share
> > qualities.  We may say a man is beautiful, and a piece of music.  We have
> > this experience of beauty, which we attribute to both objects.  That
> seems
> > to imply that beauty exists separate from the objects itself.
> >
> > Of course, you may find something beautiful that I don't.  That doesn't
> > indict beauty, but our perceptions, just as if we both looked out the
> > window and you saw a cardinal and I saw a squirrel.  Both might exist,
> but
> > we're looking at different places.
> >
> > That's a very, very short summary of an argument that has gone on for two
> > and a half thousand years in the west, so it is necessarily brief and
> > simple.
> >
>
> seems like a failed attempt to define a relativestic contruct in absolute
> terms
>
> no wonder the only successfull portion of the debate is the mathmatical
> origins
>
> The whole argument seems to start with the assumption that every feeling
> and experience of the human experience must stem from something
> "meaningfull".
>
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> What is the person trying to define "absolute beauty" trying to
> >> accomplish.
> >> Lets analyze first the mind of the individual wishing to define this
> >> term
> >> before moving on to argument itself
> >>
> >
> > No.  That's not what you do.  That's called an ad hominem argument.
> >  Motives are irrelevant.
>
> they are when there is no logical debate and the only tangible element is
> the person themself
>
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Shouldnt you have some kind of standard for what inteligeble discussion
> >> and what is just noise?
> >>
> >
> > Yes.  Of course.  Do you?
>
> yes, it was implied by the question i think..
>
> or did that go over your head?(If you are gonna be snide so will I)
>
>
> are your seriouslly wiling to discuss the "worthyness" of trying to define
> "absolute beauty".. I would love to!
>
> But everyone trying to deifne it, will usually dodge this.
>
> >
> > As for the rest, well.  Jazz is highly structured.  I know quite a bit
> > about what makes a good teacher, thank you very much.  And so on.  Those
> > arguments don't stand up to my own personal standard of what is
> > "inteligeble [sic] discussion."
>
>
> Everything is structed, structure does not imply anything relevant here?
>
> I'm sure you are a great teacher.. i suck at teaching
>
> I would like to clarify, seeing as you have obviously taken offence
> "those who cant ... teach" != "those who teach.. cant"
>
> those who "Can & Teach are probably at the top of their fields, while
> Those who "Cant & teach" probably fall to the bottom rungs of the ladder
>
> I have many great teachers, and admire many good teachers...
>
> but one can not deny the data
>
> those who discover they lack the ability, but have already invested in the
> education process, tend to end up teaching the subject.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> > order from Finishing Line
> > Press<
> http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> > and
> > Amazon<
> http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2
> >.
> >
>



-- 
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.

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October 2002, Week 1
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August 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 1
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