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CONLANG  July 2012, Week 3

CONLANG July 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: "Absolute beauty" (was: Calligraphy)

From:

Matthew DeBlock <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:53:04 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (230 lines)

>> are your seriouslly wiling to discuss the "worthyness" of trying to
>> define
>> "absolute beauty".. I would love to!


.....always leads to the following
never fails :D ......


> There's no point in continuing this conversation.  It's off topic, and
> you're too rude to talk to in a rational manner.  Once I get compared to a
> racist for holding a particular ontological perspective, the conversation
> is over and my email filter gets a little bit longer.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Matthew DeBlock <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> > On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Matthew DeBlock <[log in to unmask]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> > On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Matthew DeBlock
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1.A large portion of the artists most widly considered "amoung the
>> >> >> greatest" were never accepted during their lifetime(the classic
>> image
>> >> of
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> starving artist). If there were absolute beauty, why would it
>> require
>> >> >> time
>> >> >> to be recognized?
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Well, why wouldn't it?  Just because it exists doesn't mean it's
>> >> readily
>> >> > apparent.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Yes.. and same for that invisible palm tree in my living room.
>> >>
>> >> you have to have some kind of standard for what is worthy of
>> >> investigation, and at the very least you should at least belive the
>> task
>> >> possible on some level.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Is that standard of investigation absolute?  If it is, then why
>> couldn't
>> > there be absolute beauty as well?
>> >
>> > The difference between the palm tree and beauty is that we have both
>> had
>> > experiences of beauty.
>> >
>>
>> yes.. relative beauty
>>
>> they key word here is "absolute"
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Fine.. maybe not anyone..
>> >>
>> >> but it is a very sound assumption.
>> >>
>> >
>> > It's a rude and disrespectful assumption to those who disagree with
>> you.
>> >
>>
>> So is the concept of "asolute beauty" to everyone/everything that doesnt
>> fall within whatever boundry said person attempts to lay out.
>>
>> That would just happen to be those who disagree with me on this matter
>>
>> I "villanize" this because, as I say here, I see no difference between
>> this and someone trying to discuss "which race is superior"
>>
>> Sure, they arent making any direct racist statements themself, so its ok
>> right?
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> You suggest there could be genuine and sound philosophical
>> reasonings..
>> >> lets hear one?
>> >>
>> >
>> > There's an entire school of philosophy that I can't summarize via
>> email.
>> >  You may be interested in reading Realistic Rationalism, by Katz,
>> which
>> > argues for absolute ideas (mostly mathematical).  Of course, the
>> arguments
>> > for Beauty as an idea are laid out in Plato, and the criticisms are
>> laid
>> > out in his Parmenides.
>> >
>> > Ultimately, the argument is complex, but in a very simple form:
>> Objects
>> > appear to have qualities.  In fact, two separate objects may share
>> > qualities.  We may say a man is beautiful, and a piece of music.  We
>> have
>> > this experience of beauty, which we attribute to both objects.  That
>> seems
>> > to imply that beauty exists separate from the objects itself.
>> >
>> > Of course, you may find something beautiful that I don't.  That
>> doesn't
>> > indict beauty, but our perceptions, just as if we both looked out the
>> > window and you saw a cardinal and I saw a squirrel.  Both might exist,
>> but
>> > we're looking at different places.
>> >
>> > That's a very, very short summary of an argument that has gone on for
>> two
>> > and a half thousand years in the west, so it is necessarily brief and
>> > simple.
>> >
>>
>> seems like a failed attempt to define a relativestic contruct in
>> absolute
>> terms
>>
>> no wonder the only successfull portion of the debate is the mathmatical
>> origins
>>
>> The whole argument seems to start with the assumption that every feeling
>> and experience of the human experience must stem from something
>> "meaningfull".
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> What is the person trying to define "absolute beauty" trying to
>> >> accomplish.
>> >> Lets analyze first the mind of the individual wishing to define this
>> >> term
>> >> before moving on to argument itself
>> >>
>> >
>> > No.  That's not what you do.  That's called an ad hominem argument.
>> >  Motives are irrelevant.
>>
>> they are when there is no logical debate and the only tangible element
>> is
>> the person themself
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Shouldnt you have some kind of standard for what inteligeble
>> discussion
>> >> and what is just noise?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Yes.  Of course.  Do you?
>>
>> yes, it was implied by the question i think..
>>
>> or did that go over your head?(If you are gonna be snide so will I)
>>
>>
>> are your seriouslly wiling to discuss the "worthyness" of trying to
>> define
>> "absolute beauty".. I would love to!
>>
>> But everyone trying to deifne it, will usually dodge this.
>>
>> >
>> > As for the rest, well.  Jazz is highly structured.  I know quite a bit
>> > about what makes a good teacher, thank you very much.  And so on.
>> Those
>> > arguments don't stand up to my own personal standard of what is
>> > "inteligeble [sic] discussion."
>>
>>
>> Everything is structed, structure does not imply anything relevant here?
>>
>> I'm sure you are a great teacher.. i suck at teaching
>>
>> I would like to clarify, seeing as you have obviously taken offence
>> "those who cant ... teach" != "those who teach.. cant"
>>
>> those who "Can & Teach are probably at the top of their fields, while
>> Those who "Cant & teach" probably fall to the bottom rungs of the ladder
>>
>> I have many great teachers, and admire many good teachers...
>>
>> but one can not deny the data
>>
>> those who discover they lack the ability, but have already invested in
>> the
>> education process, tend to end up teaching the subject.
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available
>> for
>> > order from Finishing Line
>> > Press<
>> http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
>> > and
>> > Amazon<
>> http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2
>> >.
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> order from Finishing Line
> Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> and
> Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
>

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December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 3
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March 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 1
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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
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November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 3
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December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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January 2000, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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