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CONLANG  July 2012, Week 3

CONLANG July 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: "Absolute beauty" (was: Calligraphy)

From:

Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:35:47 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (106 lines)

I do not have that philosophical problem because I accept neither
abiogenesis nor evolution in general as viable theories. And I will
stop there as saying more would violate NCNC. Adam

On 7/20/12, Mechthild Czapp <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I see none of them being compatible with abiogenesis, or am I
> misunderstanding something?
>
>
> On 20.07.2012, at 20:46, Patrick Dunn wrote:
>
>> Ahh!  Thanks.  I appreciate that.
>>
>> I think that you're right that it certainly isn't compatible with pure
>> traditional Platonism (if such a thing exists -- that's a matter of
>> debate).  But it's probably not completely incompatible with realism
>> itself.  Here are some solutions that occur to me:
>>
>> 1.  There aren't forms for individual animals, only forms for things like
>> Life.  Being a horse isn't a quality of a thing; being alive is.
>>
>> or
>>
>> 2.  There's a single form of every possible living thing, and we see
>> conic
>> sections of that form.  Slice it one way, it looks like a horse.  Slice
>> it
>> another, it looks like a duck.
>>
>> or
>>
>> 3.  There are two levels of forms: higher forms are unchanging.  They are
>> reflected in lower forms which are subject to time.  This is the solution
>> of some Neoplatonists, and is compatible with #1.
>>
>> or
>>
>> 4.  Matter only imperfectly reflects forms, so there's -- say -- a
>> quadruped form, which animals continually evolve toward expressing but
>> never perfectly achieve.  I think that'd be a more classical
>> interpretation, if Plato had had knowledge of evolution.
>>
>> Those are just four that have occurred to me; there are probably others.
>> Of them, while I like #2 for the pleasure of contemplating it as a
>> possibility, I think #1 and/or #3 are most convincing to me.  I'm
>> perfectly
>> willing to accept some things have direct forms (mathematical ideas)
>> while
>> others are dim or pale reflections of a collection of forms.  What do you
>> think?
>>
>> --Patrick
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Jrg Rhiemeier
>> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>>
>>> Hallo conlangers!
>>>
>>> On Friday 20 July 2012 02:11:45 Patrick Dunn wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Jrg Rhiemeier
>>> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>>>>> I know that you are a Platonic idealist, which has the
>>>>> consequence that, for you, absolute beauty must exist.
>>>>> In my opinion, this philosophy is unable to cope with
>>>>> evolution and creativity (other than by providing a
>>>>> Form for everything that could theoretically have
>>>>> evolved or been invented but never is, which seems
>>>>> quite ridiculous to me) and thus fallacious.
>>>>
>>>> Would you explain why Platonic realism is incompatible with evolution?
>>> I'm
>>>> having a hard time seeing the jump in logic here.
>>>
>>> Simple.  Platonic Forms are timeless and unchangeable, but
>>> everything in the universe is in constant change.  Take, for
>>> instance, horses.  According to Plato, there is an eternal Form
>>> of a horse which manifests in the actual horses that live on
>>> this planet.  When did the ancestors of these horses begin to
>>> reflect that Form?  After all, many million years ago those
>>> ancestors were much less "horse-like" than they are today, and
>>> were also the ancestors of several other species.  The only
>>> way I see to reconcile evolution with Platonic Forms would be
>>> the teleological notion that everything evolves towards the
>>> Forms, but then one would expect evolution to gradually slow
>>> down as the species get closer to their Forms, and everything
>>> we know about the way evolution works strongly militates
>>> against any kind of teleology.
>>>
>>> --
>>> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
>>> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
>>> "Bsel asa am, a am atha cvanthal a cvanth atha amal." - SiM 1:1
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
>> order from Finishing Line
>> Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
>> and
>> Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
>

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