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CONLANG  July 2012, Week 3

CONLANG July 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Speedtalks and briefscripts (was: Hemingway story

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:10:19 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (206 lines)

--- On Wed, 7/18/12, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> > I think runes are very beautiful letters -- but clearly
> > not well suited to calligraphy!
> 
> Runes can be written beautifully but can look like a whole
> lot untidy scratches.  

Well, if you could see how I write in Roman letters, you'd say the same!
Henscratch.

> Like all scripts that I know of, they
> can be written with care and consideration for proper
> proportions, elegance, pleasing look etc., or written
> without any regard to their appearance.

Indeed.

> > I may be mistaken, but I think Arabic script is by
> > definition calligraphic --
> 
> Arabic script is by definition _cursive_, which is not the
> same thing at all as calligraphic.  

Okay.

> I repeat, I have seen
> Arabic and Farzi written in untidy scrawls which, by no
> stretch of the imagination, can be described as
> calligraphic.

As have I. What little news you get around here that doesn't involve
Tom Cruise and other trivialities, you do see such scrawled images written
on walls in e.g. Syria, Iraq, etc.

> I see no inherent difference between Arabic and any other
> cursive script.  There are, for example, cursive Roman
> styles that can produce a beauty equal to that of any piece
> of Arabic calligraphy; both cursive Roman script and Arabic
> script can be written as barely legible scrawls.

Agreed.
 
> > it has the opposite feature of being poorly suited to
> > block printing (i.e., individual letters).
> 
> That's true.  But cursive scripts generally are IMO
> poorly suited to block printing     ;)
> 
> > Oriental writing systems can be block printed or
> > painted. Roman (and Cyrillic) script is perhaps the
> most
> > ideal, since it can be readily adapted to all these:
> 
> So can Greek!  

Yeah. Kind of lump it in with Cyrillic! ;)) 

> >> I believe that the only important calligraphies
> have
> >> been developed in the Arabic/Persian cultural
> sphere
> >> and in the Chinese/Japanese cultural sphere. In
> these
> >> cultures, calligraphy receives at least as much
> >> attention as painting (if not more). Compare that
> to
> >> the little attention calligraphy receives in the
> >> European/etc. cultural sphere.
> >
> > Perhaps you are being a little too quick to dismiss
> > western calligraphy.
> 
> AMEN!
> 
> Also I think Mach's generalization suffers the defects of
> all generalizations.  The development of calligraphy in
> the
> Arabo-Persian culture was prompted mainly by its religion.
> Pictorial representation of living things could not be used
> to decorate places of worship; on the other hand, the
> Koran
> is regarded as quite literally God given, including the
> very
> lettering itself.  Therefore, there was a strong urge
> to
> develop an abstract, geometric form of art to decorate
> places of worship etc into which beautifully written verses
> from the Koran could be incorporated.  Hence over the
> ages
> there developed several _different_ styles of Arabic, each
> aiming to be calligraphic.
> 
> But the case of China & Japan is different. 
> Calligraphy was
> practiced because scripts that appear in paintings were
> regarded as integral to that the whole artistic experience.
> Medieval illustrated manuscripts of the scriptures,
> psalteries etc. show IMO a similar regard for a combination
> of visual art and lettering.

True -- and you see such integration of word and visual art even in later
painting styles. An inscription or date or what have you.

> To dismiss in one stroke the centuries of western
> calligraphy seems to me very shortsighted.
> 
> > I think it's true that western calligraphy has
> suffered
> > great blows since the introduction of the printing
> > press.
> 
> People of my generation might add that western calligraphy
> suffered a great blow from the introduction of the
> ball-point pen!     ;)

Yes, indeed! There was a time when cursive *was* calligraphic in nature.
It was less a scrawl and more a beautiful flow of line and curve. Anyone
who's seen an old method book on how to write cursive can see the 
connection.

> I recall how as a schoolkid in the 1950s our teachers tried
> hard to ban the use of such pens. But they have since
> become
> universal and done nothing to enhance the appearance of
> Arabic or Chinese either     ;)

True. Though such instruments have done much to improve speed, ease of use
and durability. Old ink pens (whether dipped quills or fountain pens) were
messy (still are!) and you needed a blotter to mop up excess ink. Time
spent in constantly refilling the nib or reservoir is time wasted. Nibs
break easily and they easily puncture the paper. Neither are particularly
left-hander friendly.

For all the ugliness of ballpoint pen writing, I think they certainly
solved many problems. I wouldn't wish a return to those former days!

> On 18/07/2012 01:40, Padraic Brown wrote:
> > --- On Tue, 7/17/12, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
> >
> [snip]
> >> I would say that the Western scripts' suitability
> for
> >> printing comes from their co-evolution with the
> >> printing press.
> >
> > Well, Roman script (and Cyrillic) were *suitable* for
> > the printing press before the press was invented.
> 
> Quite so! Co-evolution has nothing to do with it.  In
> what
> way were the ancient Greek scripts or the Classical Roman
> script not already suitable for printing?

They were in every way! There is no reason whatsoever that Pliny or
Cicero could not have published their works in print, except that there
were no presses in their time. Had some enterprising Greek invented the
thing, it would have been no big deal at all to transfer either alphabet
to the new medium.

The only limiting factor there is papyrus. If you've ever tried to write
on papyrus, you know it's not the smoothest of surfaces to work with.
They would need a better paper for sure!
 
> > Certainly, runes can be used to write poetry or novels
> > or instruction manuals, just like you could use Roman
> > letters. If you mean individual stylistic difference,
> I
> > don't see why they would be any different than Roman
> > letters in that regard. Some people will swoop more
> than
> > others; girls will probably find some way to make the
> > things rounded and put smilies everywhere! ;)))
> 
> I am quite sure that if Runes had continued to be used, and
> not given way to the Roman script, we would have seen the
> development of cursive forms and their use in calligraphy.

I have a photocopy of a (I think) 16th century Swedish book printed in
runes. No reason why runes could not be used even now. There are enough
runic fonts and styles for any use available online as well.

> Very many years ago I had the notion of reviving Old
> English
> runes and adapting them for modern English, and for
> developing a cursive form besides the printed form. 
> From
> what I recall, I was influenced by the Armenian script when
> I developed "cursive runes." (Armenian IMO can look very
> attractive when well written.)

Yes. Do you have any images of your updated runes?

I've not decided if Avantimannish should use some kind of runes or some
kind of other letterform. Or a combination. Or something else entirely.

> Also, as we know from discussions on this list about what
> languages are 'beautiful' or not, beauty s very much i the
> eye or ear of the beholder/ listener.  The same IMO
> applies to calligraphy.

Quite so. De gustibusses, you know.

Padraic

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August 2002, Week 1
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June 2002, Week 5
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