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CONLANG  July 2012, Week 3

CONLANG July 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Calligraphy (was: Speedtalks and briefscripts)

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:15:33 +0200

Content-Type:

Text/Plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

Text/Plain (295 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On Wednesday 18 July 2012 09:16:33 R A Brown wrote:

> On 16/07/2012 22:16, Padraic Brown wrote:
> 
> > I think runes are very beautiful letters -- but clearly
> > not well suited to calligraphy!
> 
> Runes can be written beautifully

They can.  See the works of Tolkien for beautifully written
runes (and Cirth - a wholly different alphabet, but very
similar in its graphical structure).

>       but can look like a whole
> lot untidy scratches.  Like all scripts that I know of, they
> can be written with care and consideration for proper
> proportions, elegance, pleasing look etc., or written
> without any regard to their appearance.

Sure.

> > I may be mistaken, but I think Arabic script is by
> > definition calligraphic --
> 
> Arabic script is by definition _cursive_, which is not the
> same thing at all as calligraphic.  I repeat, I have seen
> Arabic and Farzi written in untidy scrawls which, by no
> stretch of the imagination, can be described as calligraphic.
> 
> I see no inherent difference between Arabic and any other
> cursive script.  There are, for example, cursive Roman
> styles that can produce a beauty equal to that of any piece
> of Arabic calligraphy; both cursive Roman script and Arabic
> script can be written as barely legible scrawls.

Yes.  I remember the calligraphies my mother's parents had
in their house, in some sort of uncial script.  And I have
also seen unpleasantly scrawled Arabic!

> > it has the opposite feature of being poorly suited to
> > block printing (i.e., individual letters).
> 
> That's true.  But cursive scripts generally are IMO poorly
> suited to block printing     ;)

Sure.
 
> > Oriental writing systems can be block printed or
> > painted. Roman (and Cyrillic) script is perhaps the most
> 
> > ideal, since it can be readily adapted to all these:
> So can Greek!  It would probably be more correct to talk
> about Roman scripts (plural), Cyrillic scripts and Greek
> scripts, as these writing systems have developed parallel
> versions for different purposes.

Right.
 
> > it can be block printed, it can be joined into a flowing
> > 
> >  cursive script, it can be worked into dozens of varying
> >  and beautiful calligraphic styles, and can also be done
> >  in a brush stroke style.
> 
> Exactly. The Greek, Roman & Cyrillic scripts have evolved
> all these different forms.

Sure.
 
> >> I believe that the only important calligraphies have
> >> been developed in the Arabic/Persian cultural sphere
> >> and in the Chinese/Japanese cultural sphere. In these
> >> cultures, calligraphy receives at least as much
> >> attention as painting (if not more). Compare that to
> >> the little attention calligraphy receives in the
> >> European/etc. cultural sphere.
> > 
> > Perhaps you are being a little too quick to dismiss
> > western calligraphy.
> 
> AMEN!

Very much so.
 
> Also I think Mach's generalization suffers the defects of
> all generalizations.  The development of calligraphy in the
> Arabo-Persian culture was prompted mainly by its religion.
> Pictorial representation of living things could not be used
> to decorated places of worship; on the other hand, the Koran
> is regarded as quite literally God given, including the very
> lettering itself.  Therefore, there was a strong urge to
> develop an abstract, geometric form of art to decorate
> places of worship etc into which beautifully written verses
> from the Koran could be incorporated.  Hence over the ages
> there developed several _different_ styles of Arabic, each
> aiming to be calligraphic.

Exactly that is the story.  Under stricter interpretations of
the Qur'an, calligraphy was the *only* visual art allowed,
which led to this art being highly developed.
 
> But the case of China & Japan is different.  Calligraphy was
> practiced because scripts that appear in paintings were
> regarded as integral to that the whole artistic experience.
> Medieval illustrated manuscripts of the scriptures,
> psalteries etc. show IMO a similar regard for a combination
> of visual art and lettering.
> 
> To dismiss in one stroke the centuries of western
> calligraphy seems to me very shortsighted.

Amen.  Calligraphy may have been less prominent in the West than
in the Islamic world or East Asia, but it certainly constitutes
a long and vibrant tradition!
 
> > I think it's true that western calligraphy has suffered
> > great blows since the introduction of the printing
> > press.
> 
> People of my generation might add that western calligraphy
> suffered a great blow from the introduction of the
> ball-point pen!     ;)
>  
> I recall how as a schoolkid in the 1950s our teachers tried
> hard to ban the use of such pens.

When I was in school, we still weren't allowed to write with
ball-point pens, either (that was in the 70s/80s, in Germany).

>       But they have since become
> universal and done nothing to enhance the appearance of
> Arabic or Chinese either     ;)

But another modern writing implement is actually quite usable
for calligraphy: marker pens with oblong nib.
 
> > Just because calligraphy is something one only sees on
> > one's college diploma doesn't mean the west is lacking
> > in calligraphy.
> > 
> > But even modernity hasn't entirely wiped out calligraphy
> > in the west. Take a look at the St. John's Bible
> > sometime. Simply astounding. Here's the first hand
> > lettered, hand illuminated Bible to be made in something
> > like 500 years. It's definitely contemporary, but from
> > what I've seen clearly has its roots in the ancient art
> > of fine lettering.
> 
> Quite so!
> =========================================================
> 
> On 18/07/2012 01:40, Padraic Brown wrote:
> > --- On Tue, 7/17/12, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> >> I would say that the Western scripts' suitability for
> >> printing comes from their co-evolution with the
> >> printing press.
> > 
> > Well, Roman script (and Cyrillic) were *suitable* for
> > the printing press before the press was invented.
> 
> Quite so! Co-evolution has nothing to do with it.  In what
> way were the ancient Greek scripts or the Classical Roman
> script not already suitable for printing?

They certainly were.
 
> > In other words, there was potential for a relatively
> > easy transition from hand written books to entirely
> > printed books.
> 
> Exactly!
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >> Late mediaval bookhands with lots of connected letters
> >> were much less suited for printing.
> 
> I.e. cursive scripts are not so suitable for block printing.

Exactly.  This may have taken a part in the Islamic world
falling behind the advancing western civilization after the
Middle Ages.
 
> >> Runes have a certain appeal to them and they certainly
> >> have a distinct rhythm. But do they allow for
> >> expressivity?
> > 
> > I don't understand how you're using expressivity here.
> 
> Nor do I.

Runes *can* be expressive.
 
> > Certainly, runes can be used to write poetry or novels
> > or instruction manuals, just like you could use Roman
> > letters. If you mean individual stylistic difference, I
> > don't see why they would be any different than Roman
> > letters in that regard. Some people will swoop more than
> > others; girls will probably find some way to make the
> > things rounded and put smilies everywhere! ;)))
> 
> I am quite sure that if Runes had continued to be used, and
> not given way to the Roman script, we would have seen the
> development of cursive forms and their use in calligraphy.

Quite likely.
 
> Very many years ago I had the notion of reviving Old English
> runes and adapting them for modern English, and for
> developing a cursive form besides the printed form.  From
> what I recall, I was influenced by the Armenian script when
> I developed "cursive runes." (Armenian IMO can look very
> attractive when well written.)

Yes.
 
> >> I would say that their expressivity is extremely
> >> limited. And in a similar manner, I think that Western
> >> letters certainly have a distinct rhythm (unlike
> >> Western shorthands), but they are more limited than
> >> Arabic or Chinese-based letters.
> 
> Cobblers!
> 
> > Limited in what way?
> 
> Indeed - as you wrote previously, the western scripts "can
> be block printed, it can be joined into a flowing cursive
> script, it can be worked into dozens of varying and
> beautiful calligraphic styles, and can also be done in a
> brush stroke style."  Hardly limiting     :)
> 
> On the other hand, the Arabic script is rather more limited
> in that it is not easily block printed.

Yep.
 
> >> I think they are, by comparison, rather dull.
> > 
> > I don't follow. They're letters. Perhaps this is more a
> > case of familiarity breeding contempt? Arabic letters,
> > to me, are exotic (but so are runes and baybayin); but
> > none of them are dull.
> 
> Yes - what's familiar is dull, what unfamiliar is 'exotic.'
>   It tells us nothing about the inherent nature of scripts.
>  
> >> Of course, that won't hinder any serious calligrapher
> >> to do beautiful work, but it requires much more of a
> >> creative effort. That leads to modern Western
> >> calligraphy often being on the brink of illegibility
> >> (or beyond).
> > 
> > But same goes for Arabic calligraphy!
> 
> AMEN!  AMEN!

There is indeed a lot of hard-to-read Arabic calligraphy where
the letters are exquisitely meshed into each other and it is
not even obvious in which order they are to read!  Consider
the flag of Sa'udi Arabia: an entangled mess of characters.
 
> > For example, when I lived in Spain, I copied some
> > calligraphic images from a mosque, in order to ask some
> > Arabic speakers what it said. (I guess the guides were no
> > help.) Upon return to the US and showing the images to
> > some Arabic speaking students, most were excited to see
> > the images, several couldn't read it at all, but a couple
> > could. Same can be said for *any* calligraphy -- it can
> > be pushed to the extreme of near illegibility. I've seen
> > some Chinese calligraphy that can probably just barely be
> > called writing at all. It's more like scribbles slightly
> > evocative of characters.
> 
> Exactly!

Again, concurred.  Some Chinese calligraphic styles blur the
strokes of the characters beyond easy recognition.
 
> Also, as we know from discussions on this list about what
> languages are 'beautiful' or not, beauty s very much i the
> eye or ear of the beholder/ listener.  The same IMO applies
> to calligraphy.

Absolutely.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"BÍsel asa …am, a …am atha cvanthal a cvanth atha …amal." - SiM 1:1

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January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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