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CONLANG  July 2012, Week 3

CONLANG July 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Speedtalks and briefscripts (was: Hemingway story

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:32:20 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (87 lines)

--- On Wed, 7/18/12, J. 'Mach' Wust <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> From: J. 'Mach' Wust <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Speedtalks and briefscripts (was: Hemingway story
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2012, 6:29 AM
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 17:40:24 -0700,
> Padraic Brown wrote:
> >--- On Tue, 7/17/12, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
> >> I would say that their expressivity is extremely
> limited. And
> >> in a similar manner, I think that Western letters
> certainly
> >> have a distinct rhythm (unlike Western shorthands),
> but they
> >> are more limited than Arabic or Chinese-based
> letters.
> >
> >Limited in what way?
> 
> One last try: 

Go to! It's not like we've been going back and forth on this! This was the
first time I asked for clarification, not the ninth!

> The Arabic script has traditional techniques
> to diversify the rhythm of a line, for instance, techniques
> for word lengthening or techniques for using the vertical
> dimension (by that I mean that the lines are not plain
> horizontal, but are somewhat nested, not -------, but ////).

Can do that with Roman letters. I do this quite naturally all the time,
both horizontally and vertically. And I'm not even trying to write
calligraphy!

> There is of course no denying that all these things are
> possible with Western scripts, too (or even with runes).
> However, they are not traditional.

So? It's a different tradition! And I'm not so sure I'd say that such
wossnames are possible with runes.

> What does this mean? If Western calligraphers want to use
> such techniques, then they must resort to ad-hoc invention.

May be traditional now, but there was a time when this was "ad hoc 
invention" in Arabic as well.

> If Arabic calligraphers want to use such techniques, then
> they have a choice: They can either use ad-hoc invention or
> they can follow tradition. There is no such choice for
> Western calligraphers. In this sense, I call Western
> calligraphy limited by comparison, and runes are even much
> more limited.

In any event, I am still not sure why you call this a "limitation". It's
just a different tradition. Are icons "limited" because they do not
depict a photo-realistic image?

> Sure, theoretically, runes might have developed calligraphic
> traditions equally rich as Arabic calligraphy. Fact is, they
> have not.

As I said, I don't think runes are particularly suited to calligraphy as
we generally think of it. Certainly, beautiful runic script forms could
be devised.

> On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:16:33 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
> >To dismiss in one stroke the centuries of western
> >calligraphy seems to me very shortsighted.
> 
> In a similar vein, denying that calligraphy as an art form
> of its own right is traditionally less established in the
> Western world than in the Arabic or Chinese cultural spheres
> seems to me very shortsighted.

But calligraphy in the west *is* well established. We simply have a long
tradition of printed word that has, and continues to, outcompete the
lovingly hand-written word. Invitations, commemorations, papal bulls,
the Constitution, works of decorative art. All bits of calligraphy.

I would agree that calligraphy in the west is not as prominent an art as
music or literature -- but I concur that the dismissive attitude is a bit
undeserved.

Padraic

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