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CONLANG  July 2012, Week 3

CONLANG July 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Hemingway story

From:

"Paul Schleitwiler, FCM" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:09:19 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (133 lines)

Don't forget napkin has two sides, double the area.
Que Dios te bendiga de siempre y de todas maneras,
Paul


On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> --- On Fri, 7/13/12, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Maybe you're just yanking our chains,
>
> Would I do that!? :)
>
> > Padraic, for let us not forget that you are Padraic; but it
> > seems to me that the solution you describe is impossible or
> > is a nonsolution.
>
> Impossible? Perhaps. Or maybe we just need couple more dimensions inside
> that napkin...
>
> > Make the reasonable assumption that the
> > characters are formed from pixels of a minimum size. Since
> > there must be an infinite number of characters, the maximum
> > character size must also be infinite.
>
> Well, perhaps we don't need an absolutely *infinite* number of of
> characters. Surely even if we include every story, every novel ever
> written, there must be a nontrivially less than infinite number of
> actual sentences in circulation.
>
> > Maybe the higher
> > frequency characters will be smaller and the lower frequency
> > characters bigger.
>
> That makes sense.
>
> > But there's no telling how many will fit
> > on a napkin. Furthermore, if characters are formed from
> > black and white pixels, that essentially amounts to a
> > 2-phoneme phonology (/black/ and /white/), and the upshot is
> > that you're dealing with a language that generates
> > sentences, the only oddity being that the phonology is
> > interpreted graphically rather than phonetically.
>
> Well, there's no reason why we must be limited to 2D b&w. Colours and
> multiple dimensions could perhaps reduce the absolute number of symbols.
>
> But I still think we need to use a larger napkin. 100cm2 is a bloody
> tiny napkin. Only a little bigger than a cocktail napkin. I think we'd
> need a good sized napkin -- like you get over at General Phat's All Night
> Mentolatian Feedtrough. 18x18 or so.
>
> Padraic
>
> >
> > Padraic Brown, On 13/07/2012 13:40:
> > > --- On Thu, 7/12/12, And Rosta<[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >>> I think it would be a terribly unwieldy (but
> > not
> > >> impossible) writing
> > >>> system to create a unique character that
> > symbolises
> > >> every possible
> > >>> thought, phrase or sentence thinkable by the
> > human
> > >> mind.
> > >>
> > >> That's what language is, roughly speaking. A way
> > of
> > >> generating 'characters' (i.e. sentences) that
> > symbolize many
> > >> of the possible thoughts thinkable by the human
> > mind.
> > >
> > > Right, though here we have a space constraint: we have
> > to fit a book full
> > > of these sentences on a napkin.
> > >
> > >> I don't see how your imagined scheme would differ
> > from
> > >> normal language, or at least from a language
> > primarily
> > >> expressed in graphic form.
> > >
> > > Each possible sentence has a unique and small symbol.
> > The previous sentence
> > > therefore might be symbolized by "%". This last
> > sentence might be
> > > symbolised by "@".
> > >
> > > That paragraph could thus be represented by the string:
> > "%@=".
> >
> > OK, but this is a language with only a few sentences, then.
> >
> > I hereby propose a language with only one word, "O", whose
> > meaning is equivalent to the contents of _War & Peace_.
> > Lo, a language in which _War and Peace_ can be written *by
> > hand* on a pinhead.
> >
> > >>> A long novel could thus be easily written in a
> > small
> > >> space.
> > >>
> > >> I don't follow. The more characters the language
> > needs, the
> > >> bigger the characters are going to have to be.
> > >
> > > Well, sure! I leave that to symbological artificers!
> > >
> > > Can always use something like matrix codes. Small
> > space, lots of
> > > information. Or even some kind of multidimensional
> > symbol.
> > >
> > > No one ever said the napkin novel had to be readily
> > human readable!
> >
> > I think someone did, because otherwise the challenge is not
> > a challenge; as Joerg pointed out, we already have
> > microfiche for instance.
> >
> > I think the challenge is essentially impossible: roughly
> > speaking, the size of the smallest visible pixel determines
> > how much information can be fitted into the space, and
> > that's not going to be enough for a novel.
> >
> > --And.
> >
>

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