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CONLANG  July 2012, Week 3

CONLANG July 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Calligraphy (was: Speedtalks and briefscripts)

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Thu, 19 Jul 2012 09:24:24 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (269 lines)

OK - I see that there is interest in carrying on this thread
    ;)

On 18/07/2012 22:06, Adnan Majid wrote:
> Hi All!
>
> Sorry to jump on this conversation late, which has been
> quite interesting.

Not at all - good to see that you find it interesting.

> First off, indeed as many have said, there are many
> times when Arabic/Persian can look anything but
> calligraphic - 'beautiful writing' - whereas basic
> printed Roman/Greek/Indic/Hebrew characters can presented
> very beautifully.

Yep - that basically is the sort of thing I've been saying.

[snip]
>
> Despite that, I do see major qualitative differences
> which distinguishes the Arabic script from the other
> scripts and contributes to its use in calligraphy --
> flexibility and variability. A reader of Arabic just has
> to expect a great deal more variability in letter forms.
> It's common, for instance, to lengthen the distance
> between two letters in a single word to simply 'fill up
> space' in a line. Letters can also connect to one another
> in different ways (for instance, one can connect to the
> letter 'jeem' at two different locations, at one's
> whim).

Ah, the ligatures   :)

Ligatures were once more common in western writing also.
Another feature was the use of standard abbreviations and
special marks to show different abbreviations etc.

Yes, I agree that Arabic calligraphy does use the features
you describe above.  But where I differ from Mach and,
presumably, from you is that I maintain that lengthening
letters & using ligatures are not an _inherent_ part of the
Arabic script, but are features that have been developed by
calligraphers using that script. I also argue that the
driving force in developing Arabic script calligraphy was
not anything inherent in the script itself but came from the
Islamic culture that used the script.

> By contrast, in scripts where the printing culture has
> standardized letter forms, readers no longer seem
> prepared to deal with as much variability. If I see a
> single word in which two letters are
> sepa____________rated just to fill up space, it just
> looks unreadable and confusing.

This is true, but again I maintain that these are
_secondary_ features.  In this case, we are talking about a
standardization brought about by printing.  Someone - I
forget who - observed that in modern printed Arabic the
number of traditional ligatures is much reduced.

But if the main medium of Roman script (or Greek or
Cyrillic) was still handwritten, not printed, we would
certainly see a much greater variety.

> The Arabic script, with such traditional variability and
> flexibility, may thus provide a larger playground for
> creative artistic expression, contributing to
> calligraphic culture.

Ah, there's the rub! My view is that the "traditional
variability and flexibility" which "may thus provide a
larger playground for creative artistic expression" _derives
from_ the calligraphic culture in which it was used, and was
not the cause of that culture.

> That may change as modern Arabic writing becomes more and
> more standardized with computer use. Likewise, modern
> Persian is also becoming very standardized.

Yes.

BTW some of the scrawly Arabic script I have seen were notes
written by in ball-pen two of my Farsi speaking colleagues
where I worked before I retired.  Nothing beautiful about
those scrawls!
====================================================

On 18/07/2012 23:35, Padraic Brown wrote:
> --- On Wed, 7/18/12, Adnan Majid wrote:
>
>> Despite that, I do see major qualitative differences
>> which distinguishes the Arabic script from the other
>> scripts and contributes to its use in calligraphy --
>> flexibility and variability.

[snip]

> But, like in Arabic, when we write cursive (those of us
> that learnt how to do it!) there is much more
> variability, as you describe above for Arabic.

Yep - and that's another point I have been trying to make.
The main feature IMO that distinguishes Arabic script from
many others is that the Arabic script is _cursive_ only.
The various features that both Mach & Adnan have shown
calligraphers make use of with the Arabic script are common
to cursive forms of the Roman script (and, surely, cursive
forms of Cyrillic & Greek).

[Patrick's analysis of his handwriting snipped]

> How many styles is that? And that's just one little
> word! I'm also a fan of the long ess and a fancy aitch
> I've seen some Europeans use. I like exageratedly long
> risers and descenders, long ems, ens, even in the middle
> of words. Decoration only increases as I write more
> carefully. And this is just ordinary writing done with
> little care to aesthetics.

I think the thing is that cursive handwriting is much less
used today that it was when I was kid in the 1940s & 1950s.
The use of keyboards doesn't exactly encourage handwriting.

>> If I see a single word in which two letters are
>> sepa____________rated just to fill up space, it just
>> looks unreadable and confusing.
>
> Then try to avoid reading my writing! In my experience,
> this particular phenomenon is not terribly common in the
> cursive writing I've read, but all the above and more
> styles are very common indeed.

Indeed; and in the days when cursive writing was the norm,
one had to get used to a whole varieties of styles.  I
recall my mother's handwriting was particularly difficult to
read.  Apart from the slope of the letters, it was often
reminiscent of Arabic!
==========================================================

On 19/07/2012 00:40, Sam Stutter wrote:
> Seems to me that there are 2 questions here:
>
> 1) Is calligraphy popular? Answer: yes (in the UK, at
> least - our pokey little bookshop must sell at least one
>  calligraphy book a week. And the US, apparently. And,
> presumably, in other Latin-alphabet using languages)

As we've seen from other responses, it's clearly popular in
anglophone countries.  But I would be very surprised to
discover that only anglophones kept this art alive.

> 2) Are some alphabets inherently better for calligraphy?
>  I don't think so.

Nor I.

> I can imagine Hebrew and Bengali calligraphy.

I have before me right now a little book called "The Art of
Hebrew Lettering." Yes, folks *ART*.

> Latin calligraphy, especially when in conjunction with
> illuminated lettering, is a wonder to behold. I find it
> difficult to imagine Greek or Cyrillic calligraphy, but
> then again I've never seen it handwritten, only ever
> typeset.

I find the Greek easy to imagine   ;)

There was certainly a tradition of Greek calligraphy in the
Middle Ages, hopefully printing has not killed it off. I am
darn sure the Russian Orthodox church must have had
(possibly still has) a tradition of Cyrillic calligraphy.
=========================================================

On 19/07/2012 01:55, Adam Walker wrote:
> Well, I fanially read through all the emails in this
> conversation, and I am now going to join the fray.

Thank you.  I found your contribution very helpful.

> I will start by saying that I agree with both Ray and
> Padraic AND with Mach and others who have more or less
> agreed with him.
>
> Of course that means that I also disagree with everyone
> to some degree or other.

       :)

> (Finally, Christophe almost made me want to cry

Indeed.  I just cried "What a Philistine!"

> with his post about the loss of awareness of this
> beautiful art in both France and the Netherlands.  How
> lands that produced so much beauty in the past have
> become so bleakly utilitarian in the present makes me
> ache.)

Yes, indeed.  Has the effect of the Revolution really made
France so utilitarian?  I really find it hard to believe.

> Now back to calligraphy...
>
> I do think that some scripts are more inherantly
> beautiful than others.  By that I mean some have a finer
> sense of balance and construction exhibited in their
> characters.  Some scripts just seem to be a wonderfully
> matched set of symbols offering the right ballance of
> sameness and variety.  Other scripts seem strangely
> unballanced or like odd collections of mismatched
> symbols or a great many symbols that are too much of a
> muchness.

Indeed, I find some scripts appeal to me more than others,
e.g. Burmese looks more attractive to me than Thai, Tamil
more beautiful than Devanagari and so on.  But is this
because of something inherent in  those scripts?  I think
this is more a question of _de gustibus_.

> But that does not mean that each and every script ever
> used cannot be written with greater or lesser skill and
> with greater or lesser attention to the praticular
> aesthetic inherent in that script.

Amen!

> I do not, however, accept that some scripts are
> inherantly "calligraphic." Arabic has been touted, in
> this thread, as being particularly calligraphy-friendly.
> Runes have been denigrated as particularly ill-suited to
> being beautifully written.  I balk at both assertions.

As do I.

> Calligraphy is of extreme cultural importance in lands
> using the Arabic and Arabic-based scripts, so this art
> has been highly developed, but that doesn't mean that
> the script, per se, is more calligraphilic.  It only
> means that more human energy has been put into producing
> works of calligraphic art in those cultures -- greater
> output means more samples from which to choose
> masterpieces, and more masterpieces to emulate.

Quite.  It is great to hear from someone who actually
practises calligraphy (as opposed to my dilettante attempts
over the years). I've snipped the rest of Adam's email, but
I think the stuff he has written about Runes, Chinese
calligraphy and western calligraphy are very helpful and
worth reading more than once.  Please do so.

[snip]

> The only limit is the calligrapher's creativity.

AMEN!

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Frustra fit per plura quod potest
fieri per pauciora.
[William of Ockham]

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February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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