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CONLANG  July 2012, Week 3

CONLANG July 2012, Week 3

Subject:

"Absolute beauty" (was: Calligraphy)

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 19 Jul 2012 18:29:05 +0200

Content-Type:

Text/Plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

Text/Plain (99 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On Wednesday 18 July 2012 21:13:57 And Rosta wrote:

> R A Brown, On 18/07/2012 17:39:
> > Pointless, I think. It is quite clear to me that Mach & I
> > are not going to agree over this; and IME continuing an
> > exchange between two people who are clearly not going agree
> > becomes very tedious for other list members.
> > 
> > The maxim "de gustibus non est disputandum" is so very true.
> 
> I remember previous discussions in which you and Joerg took this line and I
> was taking a position like Mach's. While of course one need not
> participate in discussions one isn't interested in, to curtail debate of
> aesthetic matters simply on the grounds of de gustibus is to abandon the
> quest for understanding -- understanding of aesthetic responses and
> understanding of intersubjective patterns among aesthetic responses. It's
> good to understand why someone (including oneself) has an aesthetic
> preference for X over Y, and it's instructive to discover which
> preferences tend to be shared across a population. I suppose one could
> consider these questions to belong principally to cognitive psychology.

Sure.
 
> I myself would go further, and argue that patterns of intersubjective
> aesthetic agreement can be translated into an approximation of absolute
> value.

I doubt that.  Seriously.  Beauty is a subjective notion; it
lies in the eyes of the beholder, as it is said so often.
Sure, there are things that people *tend to* consider
beautiful more often than others, such as symmetric shapes;
but the variation is sufficient to doubt that anything like
"absolute beauty" exists.  Some people consider luxurious
gold embroiderings on clothes beautiful; others (including
me) consider them pompous and ugly.

>       For example, _Sight and Sound_ has periodically published
> collections of film critics' ten favourite films. There's a very large
> amount of agreement between them. There are individual oddities -- for
> example, Citizen Kane is in almost all top tens, but not mine, whereas
> Scaramouche is in my top ten but in nobody else's I've ever seen, but
> overall there is huge overlap -- e.g. Bicycle Thieves and Seven Samurai
> are in my top ten and most others.

There are certain conventions in the western world concerning
what makes a good film and what not, and it is these conventions
that show in such lists to a large degree.  Especially among film
critics, who are accustomed to these conventions as they have
studied them professionally.  This explains why the film critics
agree most of the time.

There are similar conventions in many other bodies of artistic
criticism, and sometimes the conventions change radically.  One
example of such a sudden reversal was in 1977 when progressive
rock music was suddenly declared gauche and pompous with the
advent of punk rock.  So who was right, the pre-1977 critics
who hailed progressive rock as the "classical music of the
future", or the post-1977 critics who condemned it as "not
true to the proletarian spirit of rock'n'roll"?

A much more serious reversal happened in Germany in 1933 when
the Nazis got into power and declared that everything in the
fine arts that had previously been considered modern and
progressive was now to be considered _entartet_ 'degenerate'
and banned.  (Only to be followed by a second reversal in
1945, when the monumental art of the Nazis was, in my opinion
rightly, declared overblown and ugly, and the modern art that
had been banned by the Nazis was reinstated.)

>       From a utilitarian perspective, the
> world would be far more impoverished by the loss of Bicycle Thieves than
> by the loss of Police Academy 27, and ergo is far more enriched by Bicycle
> Thieves than by Police Academy 27. And while you may not agree with that
> philosophical position, its logic is robust enough to legitimate
> disputation about taste.

Balderdash.  I agree with you that the _Police Academy_ films
are rubbish, so it is not much of an achievement to be "better"
than that (I haven't even *heard* of _Bicycle Thieves_ yet,
unless it is known by some completely different name in
Germany, as is often the case with Hollywood films).  But that
is just my personal opinion; *some* people are attracted by
_Police Academy_ films, otherwise they hadn't made so many of
them.  Isn't it a dangerous move to say that your taste was
"better" than theirs?  It is a slippery slope from aesthetic
prescriptivism to art censorship.  The various totalitarian
régimes which banned modern art as "degenerate", "bourgeois",
"formalist" or whatever all laid claims on "absolute beauty"
which they considered being manifested in the centuries of
pre-modern art tradition.  You seem to wish to revert to times
when art was not free. 

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1

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