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CONLANG  July 2012, Week 3

CONLANG July 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Calligraphy (was: Speedtalks and briefscripts)

From:

"J. 'Mach' Wust" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 19 Jul 2012 12:33:51 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (74 lines)

On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:58:08 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
>> and I doubt that its use of word stretching was anything
>> nearly as regular as in the Arabic script.
>
>No one has argued that it is.  The reasons for the
>development of calligraphy as a major art form in the
>Islamic world have already been given.  No one AFAIK has
>denied that calligraphy has played a far more dominant role
>in Islamic art that it has done in western art.

Then I have misunderstood you. The far more dominant role of calligraphy in the Arabic sphere (and in the Sinosphere) has been a central part of my point.

>What I still maintain is that the development of Arabic
>calligraphy is not due to the Arabic abject but to other
>cultural effects, and that any creative calligrapher can
>produce comparable effects in other scripts.

I have never denied that. The difference is that in the Arabic culture, there is a tradition of producing these calligraphic effects, while in the West, there is not. Where we differ (if I have understood you correctly) is that I see these calligraphic traditions as something inseperably related to the script, while you see them as something totally unrelated. OK then.

>> I am not aware of any Western tradition of using quirky
>> lines at all, such as for instance in Taʿlīq style
>> Arabic script:
>> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ta%27liq_script_1.jpg
>
>I do not find the example particularly beautiful
>or attractive (de gustibus again, I guess).  The best I
>could come up with in a quick search was:

Thanks for the links. For two reasons, I think they are not comparable to the Arabic example:

1. None of them show what I had in mind, but that is due to my poor English. What I had in mind is writing where the one-dimensionality is broken and not all characters sit (or, in other scripts, hang) on the base line. A curved line is still a one-dimensional base line. In the link I posted, you will find that the lines have a macrostructure that goes from right to left (with an upwards curve), but within these macro-lines, there is a microstructure that puts sometimes as much as three words on top of each other. Alternatively, you could interpret this as tiny curved base lines that group together in order to form a single second order base line. Mind you that this is not the same thing as subscripts/superscripts or as calligramms (like the heart calligramm you posted). While the link I posted is an extreme example, vertical microstructure within a horizontal macrostructure is not uncommon even in simpler varieties of the Arabic script. Even in what at first sight looks like a pretty linear rendering of the name Muhammed, the mīm character in the following sample is not placed on the base line at all but on top of the ḥāʾ character (without being a superscript):
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Muhammad_Salat.svg

2. I was specifically referring to a *tradition* of using such techniques. I also know a cousin of mine who uses in-word stretching, and there are even stylistic sets of the Zapfino font that feature some stretched letters, but this is far from being anything as traditional or regular like Arabic in-word stretching.

---

On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 08:14:15 -0700, Padraic Brown wrote:
>--- On Thu, 7/19/12, R A Brown wrote:
>> On 19/07/2012 01:55, Adam Walker wrote:
>> > I do not, however, accept that some scripts are
>> > inherantly "calligraphic." Arabic has been touted, in
>> > this thread, as being particularly
>> calligraphy-friendly.
>> > Runes have been denigrated as particularly ill-suited
>> to
>> > being beautifully written. I balk at both
>> assertions.
>> 
>> As do I.
>
>As do I! I don't think I went as far as saying that runes can't be written
>beautifully! But I do maintain that their straight lines and angles don't
>lend themselves well to common calligraphic styles.

My point exactly. But in addition to that, in my ears the assertion that "[the rune's] straight lines and angles don't lend themselves well to common calligraphic styles" is but a complicated way of saying that runes are inherently less calligraphic. I'll try adopting the former way of expressing the idea in order to avoid confusion. For practicing this hopefully less ambiguous way of expressing the idea, I will try to apply it to my original statement about shorthands:

I believe that the shorthand systems' (English-geometric or German-cursive) uneven base line and overloaded formal repertoire 
doesn't lend itself well to common calligraphic styles (even worse than in the case of runes, and independent of writing speed). This is most evident in comparison to the Arabic script which may allow similar writing speeds even though its forms lend themselves very well to common calligraphic styles (additionally, there is a rich tradition of Arabic calligraphic styles, whether this has affected the Arabic script's forms [as I believe] or not).

>This of course doesn't mean that some sort of runic calligraphy could not
>be developed. It just probably won't have the flowing curves we tend to
>associate with calligraphy. It would look quite different -- either that
>or we'd need to make new, curvy runes to fit usual calligraphic 
>conventions.

I think I have seen curvy runes, but I don't recall whether these were isolated samples or instances of a tradition (or whether we just don't know).

BTW, I recently asked a teacher friend of mine and she confirmed that in this place, children are still to taught to write with a proper fountain pen (after an initial pencil stage). However, the calligraphy drills we still had in the early 1990s have been discontinued.

-- 
grüess
mach

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