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CONLANG  July 2012, Week 3

CONLANG July 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: "Absolute beauty" (was: Calligraphy)

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 19 Jul 2012 19:48:40 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (85 lines)

Jörg Rhiemeier, On 19/07/2012 17:29:
> On Wednesday 18 July 2012 21:13:57 And Rosta wrote:
>> I myself would go further, and argue that patterns of intersubjective
>> aesthetic agreement can be translated into an approximation of absolute
>> value.
>
> I doubt that.  Seriously.  Beauty is a subjective notion; it
> lies in the eyes of the beholder, as it is said so often.
> Sure, there are things that people *tend to* consider
> beautiful more often than others, such as symmetric shapes;
> but the variation is sufficient to doubt that anything like
> "absolute beauty" exists.  Some people consider luxurious
> gold embroiderings on clothes beautiful; others (including
> me) consider them pompous and ugly.

But my argument is that this datum is of only small evidential value, insufficient to falsify a claim that gold embroiderings are beautiful. (By "absolute" in my original "absolute value", I meant value to mankind in general rather than relative value to different individuals.) To ascertain whether gold embroiderings are beautiful, canvas the views of mankind in general, and make due allowance for the distortions of fads and fashions.
  
>>        For example, _Sight and Sound_ has periodically published
>> collections of film critics' ten favourite films. There's a very large
>> amount of agreement between them. There are individual oddities -- for
>> example, Citizen Kane is in almost all top tens, but not mine, whereas
>> Scaramouche is in my top ten but in nobody else's I've ever seen, but
>> overall there is huge overlap -- e.g. Bicycle Thieves and Seven Samurai
>> are in my top ten and most others.
>
> There are certain conventions in the western world concerning
> what makes a good film and what not, and it is these conventions
> that show in such lists to a large degree.  Especially among film
> critics, who are accustomed to these conventions as they have
> studied them professionally.  This explains why the film critics
> agree most of the time.

Whereas I think that the proof of the sagacity of the critics is that I tend to agree with them...

Note that I was talking about lists of best films of all time; the more contemporaneous the artwork is, the more that ostensibly aesthetic judgements are distorted by extraneous factors such as fashion, the allure of the new, the pleasure of mere novelty, and so forth.

> There are similar conventions in many other bodies of artistic
> criticism, and sometimes the conventions change radically.  One
> example of such a sudden reversal was in 1977 when progressive
> rock music was suddenly declared gauche and pompous with the
> advent of punk rock.  So who was right, the pre-1977 critics
> who hailed progressive rock as the "classical music of the
> future", or the post-1977 critics who condemned it as "not
> true to the proletarian spirit of rock'n'roll"?

A certain amount of time has to pass before one can answer this. From the vantage point of 2012, it looks as tho neither was right, both because neither movement yielded much of value and because works of greatest value rise above any movement they belong to, and, on the whole, there is little aesthetic value to movements per se. (I haven't bothered checking this, but I reckon that if you consulted lists of top hundred albums or top hundred songs, neither prog rock nor high punk would figure prominently.)
  
>>         From a utilitarian perspective, the
>> world would be far more impoverished by the loss of Bicycle Thieves than
>> by the loss of Police Academy 27, and ergo is far more enriched by Bicycle
>> Thieves than by Police Academy 27. And while you may not agree with that
>> philosophical position, its logic is robust enough to legitimate
>> disputation about taste.
>
> Balderdash.  I agree with you that the _Police Academy_ films
> are rubbish, so it is not much of an achievement to be "better"
> than that (I haven't even *heard* of _Bicycle Thieves_ yet,
> unless it is known by some completely different name in
> Germany, as is often the case with Hollywood films).

It's called _Fahrraddiebe_ in Germany (<http://www.amazon.de/Fahrraddiebe-2-DVDs-Vittorio-Sica/dp/B0016420QG/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1342722120&sr=1-1>). _Ladri di Biciclette_ is the original title.

> But that
> is just my personal opinion; *some* people are attracted by
> _Police Academy_ films, otherwise they hadn't made so many of
> them.  Isn't it a dangerous move to say that your taste was
> "better" than theirs?

The point I'd been trying to make is that a rational theory of aesthetic value is possible without it being based merely on an assertion that my taste is better than theirs. Rather, it's a Utilitarian theory.

>It is a slippery slope from aesthetic  prescriptivism to art censorship.

In my previous message I wasn't advocating aesthetic prescriptivism; aesthetic prescriptivism had nothing to do with what I was talking about. All the same, I am happy to advocate aesthetic prescriptivism in situations where it is better than the absence of it (e.g. educational curriculums, public architecture, public art galleries). It is a slippery slope from government to totalitarianism, but lover of liberty tho I am, that does not make me embrace anarchism.

>The various totalitarian
> régimes which banned modern art as "degenerate", "bourgeois",
> "formalist" or whatever all laid claims on "absolute beauty"
> which they considered being manifested in the centuries of
> pre-modern art tradition.  You seem to wish to revert to times
> when art was not free.

I share and commend your hatred of totalitarianism, but don't let your fear of totalitarianism lead you to abandon rational thought on matters of philosophy or -- if you can manage not to (and if you can't I accept that limitation as innocent and as part of who you are) -- to impute to me wishes that are neither mine nor expressed or implied in my email.

--And.

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