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CONLANG  July 2012, Week 3

CONLANG July 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: "Absolute beauty" (was: Calligraphy)

From:

Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 19 Jul 2012 14:02:16 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (145 lines)

For once, I find myself agreeing with And.  I do believe there is such a
thing as objective beauty.  It may be difficult or even impossible to
define, but I do not believe that makes it any less real a thing.

Adam

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 1:48 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Jörg Rhiemeier, On 19/07/2012 17:29:
>
>> On Wednesday 18 July 2012 21:13:57 And Rosta wrote:
>>
>>> I myself would go further, and argue that patterns of intersubjective
>>> aesthetic agreement can be translated into an approximation of absolute
>>> value.
>>>
>>
>> I doubt that.  Seriously.  Beauty is a subjective notion; it
>> lies in the eyes of the beholder, as it is said so often.
>> Sure, there are things that people *tend to* consider
>> beautiful more often than others, such as symmetric shapes;
>> but the variation is sufficient to doubt that anything like
>> "absolute beauty" exists.  Some people consider luxurious
>> gold embroiderings on clothes beautiful; others (including
>> me) consider them pompous and ugly.
>>
>
> But my argument is that this datum is of only small evidential value,
> insufficient to falsify a claim that gold embroiderings are beautiful. (By
> "absolute" in my original "absolute value", I meant value to mankind in
> general rather than relative value to different individuals.) To ascertain
> whether gold embroiderings are beautiful, canvas the views of mankind in
> general, and make due allowance for the distortions of fads and fashions.
>
>
>
>>        For example, _Sight and Sound_ has periodically published
>>> collections of film critics' ten favourite films. There's a very large
>>> amount of agreement between them. There are individual oddities -- for
>>> example, Citizen Kane is in almost all top tens, but not mine, whereas
>>> Scaramouche is in my top ten but in nobody else's I've ever seen, but
>>> overall there is huge overlap -- e.g. Bicycle Thieves and Seven Samurai
>>> are in my top ten and most others.
>>>
>>
>> There are certain conventions in the western world concerning
>> what makes a good film and what not, and it is these conventions
>> that show in such lists to a large degree.  Especially among film
>> critics, who are accustomed to these conventions as they have
>> studied them professionally.  This explains why the film critics
>> agree most of the time.
>>
>
> Whereas I think that the proof of the sagacity of the critics is that I
> tend to agree with them...
>
> Note that I was talking about lists of best films of all time; the more
> contemporaneous the artwork is, the more that ostensibly aesthetic
> judgements are distorted by extraneous factors such as fashion, the allure
> of the new, the pleasure of mere novelty, and so forth.
>
>
> There are similar conventions in many other bodies of artistic
>> criticism, and sometimes the conventions change radically.  One
>> example of such a sudden reversal was in 1977 when progressive
>> rock music was suddenly declared gauche and pompous with the
>> advent of punk rock.  So who was right, the pre-1977 critics
>> who hailed progressive rock as the "classical music of the
>> future", or the post-1977 critics who condemned it as "not
>> true to the proletarian spirit of rock'n'roll"?
>>
>
> A certain amount of time has to pass before one can answer this. From the
> vantage point of 2012, it looks as tho neither was right, both because
> neither movement yielded much of value and because works of greatest value
> rise above any movement they belong to, and, on the whole, there is little
> aesthetic value to movements per se. (I haven't bothered checking this, but
> I reckon that if you consulted lists of top hundred albums or top hundred
> songs, neither prog rock nor high punk would figure prominently.)
>
>
>
>>         From a utilitarian perspective, the
>>> world would be far more impoverished by the loss of Bicycle Thieves than
>>> by the loss of Police Academy 27, and ergo is far more enriched by
>>> Bicycle
>>> Thieves than by Police Academy 27. And while you may not agree with that
>>> philosophical position, its logic is robust enough to legitimate
>>> disputation about taste.
>>>
>>
>> Balderdash.  I agree with you that the _Police Academy_ films
>> are rubbish, so it is not much of an achievement to be "better"
>> than that (I haven't even *heard* of _Bicycle Thieves_ yet,
>> unless it is known by some completely different name in
>> Germany, as is often the case with Hollywood films).
>>
>
> It's called _Fahrraddiebe_ in Germany (<http://www.amazon.de/**
> Fahrraddiebe-2-DVDs-Vittorio-**Sica/dp/B0016420QG/ref=sr_1_1?**
> s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1342722120&**sr=1-1<http://www.amazon.de/Fahrraddiebe-2-DVDs-Vittorio-Sica/dp/B0016420QG/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1342722120&sr=1-1>>).
> _Ladri di Biciclette_ is the original title.
>
>
> But that
>> is just my personal opinion; *some* people are attracted by
>> _Police Academy_ films, otherwise they hadn't made so many of
>> them.  Isn't it a dangerous move to say that your taste was
>> "better" than theirs?
>>
>
> The point I'd been trying to make is that a rational theory of aesthetic
> value is possible without it being based merely on an assertion that my
> taste is better than theirs. Rather, it's a Utilitarian theory.
>
>
> It is a slippery slope from aesthetic  prescriptivism to art censorship.
>>
>
> In my previous message I wasn't advocating aesthetic prescriptivism;
> aesthetic prescriptivism had nothing to do with what I was talking about.
> All the same, I am happy to advocate aesthetic prescriptivism in situations
> where it is better than the absence of it (e.g. educational curriculums,
> public architecture, public art galleries). It is a slippery slope from
> government to totalitarianism, but lover of liberty tho I am, that does not
> make me embrace anarchism.
>
>
> The various totalitarian
>> régimes which banned modern art as "degenerate", "bourgeois",
>> "formalist" or whatever all laid claims on "absolute beauty"
>> which they considered being manifested in the centuries of
>> pre-modern art tradition.  You seem to wish to revert to times
>> when art was not free.
>>
>
> I share and commend your hatred of totalitarianism, but don't let your
> fear of totalitarianism lead you to abandon rational thought on matters of
> philosophy or -- if you can manage not to (and if you can't I accept that
> limitation as innocent and as part of who you are) -- to impute to me
> wishes that are neither mine nor expressed or implied in my email.
>
> --And.
>

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