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CONLANG  July 2012, Week 5

CONLANG July 2012, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Transcription system for Books

From:

Michael Everson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 29 Jul 2012 23:42:52 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (50 lines)

On 29 Jul 2012, at 20:33, Dustfinger Batailleur wrote:

> While transliterating a single language is pretty easy, transliterating the large amount of languages with a single system is madness, and giving each language its own system (with characters meaning different things for different languages) would also be pretty mad.

One could not say more without knowing about the individual languages. But the target audience is "readers of the Latin script", so that settles part of the solution range. I mean, you don't want to have "c" mean one thing in one language and something totally different in another. Burdening the reader with some new letters is one thing, but there should be consistency in the œuvre. 

On 29 Jul 2012, at 20:36, MorphemeAddict wrote:

> Tolkien solved this problem using only a few simple diacritical marks on ordinary letters. I think that's a reasonable solution.


He also didn't have that many languages. Again, it depends what Dustfinger's specific requirements are. Between encoded UCS characters and some unencoded-but-destined-for-it-characters, it can't be "impossible" to sort something out.

On 29 Jul 2012, at 21:35, J. M. DeSantis wrote:

> For one, yes, Tolkien's method was adequate for what he was attempting to create, but even so, despite all his best intentions of "regularising" a transcription system for Quenya and Sindarin, most people still mispronounced certain Elvish names incorrectly, without knowing the language better (specifically Celeborn for English speaking peoples).

"Many" perhaps. We can't know about "most". 

> But, then again, most English speaking peoples, looking at the Irish female name Siobhan, would not know how to pronounce it without being introduced to the name and its spelling before trying to sound it out cold.

Especially as it's "Siobhán". ;-)

> That said, and from what I've experienced and learned, I think I can offer only this advice: First of all, no matter how "good" you are at presenting a transcription system for the reader, inevitably, there are names which people will either have difficulty pronouncing or botch up entirely without further investigating the proper pronunciations of your language's sounds.

Well, the rules I wrote for Zumorigénflit at http://www.evertype.com/books/goatland.html are clear enough. It's a coherent system explained with reference to English sounds (and foreign sounds where necessary) for English-speaking readers. That's all you can do in this context. 

> And let's be clear, not everyone--I dare say not the large majority--of your readers will even bother with that, sadly.

Putting the section on spelling and pronunciation in the front-matter is probably better than putting it in the back-matter though.

> Secondly, as a writer, you do have an obligation, first and foremost, to making your work readable and presentable to the general public, not experts in your languages.

Quite interesting. In the case of Áloþk, what I got from the author was a very funny book in which he'd made up a "language". Byron is no conlanger, though. He's a parodist and satirist and humourist. What he'd done was type word-shapes that pleased him, and then he put diacritical marks of various kind on every letter in every word. When I got hold of the book for publication, I realized, and said to Byron, "We can't put out a book in which a reader would have NO CHANCE of reading it aloud." Simple as that. "We must have a phonology and an orthography." So I took Byron's wordshapes and diacritics and the main character's name "Ałǒŧķ" ([aːwɔθkʲ], I guessed) and started deciding. Since ŧ is [θ] in Sami I decided I wanted that sound, because I wanted to use the letter þ. That quickly led to Bashkir phonology (with some umlauted vowels) and then I applied a conceit of Icelandic Mormon missionaries in Ŋúǧ (to account for þ and ð) and then I re-spelt and modified word-shapes to make some sort of sense of it. No, there's no real grammar. But there's structure, and the reader can pronounce everything with a minimum of trouble. (And this is worthwhile. because the book is very funny indeed.)

> Thus, you should attempt to represent it in a form which is highly approachable. Does that mean you won't have any diacritical marks? Perhaps no and perhaps yes.

In part it depends also on the phonology. Or you get "too many h's". :-)

> Consider this: there are plenty of translations of the Mahabharata and the Ramayana (to go back to Indian languages again) which do not use the otherwise essential diacritical marks on names. Long and short *a* are merely represented as "a." Same goes for o, e, u, i and even any complex consonant sounds (think Vishnu: most people pronounce it as Vish-noo, but in some Indian languages (perhaps even Sanskrit--on this I'm uncertain) the v sound is something closer to a sound between v and w--putting your upper teeth near the lower lips and blowing through the air passage--than it is to English v, yet Vish-noo is still an acceptable pronunciation for non-native speakers). Thus, as Tolkien did, you can always append your pronunciation guide, and perhaps even the "proper" spellings of names and words, to the end of your book.

If Dustfinger has so many languages though it seems pretty central to his task to represent them better rather than worse. I'd recommend diacritics and modified Latin letters, which can (if the system is well-designed) be fun and exotic for the reader. Readers will do SOMETHING with anything you throw at them. 

> After all, don't forget (since Stevo mentioned Tolkien), the name Frodo was actually (according to Tolkien) supposed to be transcribed Froda (given masculine Hobbit names ended with "a"), however Tolkien changed the transcription to help Anglicise the name (and help it not look feminine to the reader). Also, Took would actually be transcribed Tuk (with a chevron over the u).

"Tûk" with a circumflex can only really be pronnounced [uː], I would guess. The unauthorized Esperanto Hobbit missed this and calls them "Tjuko". How one gets [ju] from "oo" I've no idea.


Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

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