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CONLANG  August 2012, Week 2

CONLANG August 2012, Week 2

Subject:

Re: PIE stops (was: Allophony in Siye)

From:

Matthew Boutilier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 12 Aug 2012 13:58:44 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (92 lines)

What I like most about the glottalic theory is that it actually accounts
for the absence of *b (i.e. */p?/) ... there is a very well established
phonetic explanation for the lack of a bilabial ejective rather than any
other ejective since -- the lips being farther from the glottis than the
teeth or soft palate or what have you -- the phonetic contrast between e.g.
/p?/ and /p/ is slighter and harder to perceive than that between e.g. /k?/
and /k/. Proto-Semitic for instance has */k?/ */t?/ (and a handful of
ejective fricatives, or affricates depending on whom you ask) but no */p?/.
If PIE had an ejective series it would be totally normal for */p?/ not to
be a part of it.

>I've e.g. also seen seriously proposed (I forget by whom) the idea that
> they were voiced spirants;
>
> Doesn't one run into the problem that their reflexes are stops throughout?
> Spirants don't seem to become stops very often - except maybe for
> interdental ones ([θ] > [d]), but even in this case, there are several
> possibilities of change into different spirants ([s], [f]).
>

I've heard this too. The best evidence for this (i.e. the only evidence I
can think of which may well not be the best out there) is in Germanic. When
the PIE voiceless stops -- sticking with the traditional nomenclature --
became voiceless fricatives (Grimm's Law) in Germanic, e.g. *p > *φ ; *t >
*θ ; *k > *x, they would then in certain environments become voiced
fricatives (Verner's Law) -- i.e. *φ > *β, *θ > *ð *x > *γ. The thing is
these new fricatives *merged* with the Germanic reflexes of the PIE
aspirated stops. So *dh (and sometimes *t) > *ð, etc. These voiced
fricatives generally become stops in West Germanic (English, German, etc.)
but Norse and Gothic give pretty good evidence for this
merger-as-fricatives. So it's not too far a leap to suggest maybe they were
*always* fricatives. [v] might not become [b] that often, but [β] certainly
does; the spirant > plosive thing might not be that much of a problem.

Come to think of it, this should shed light on *b > *w as well; we would
> have no *wReD but some √wReT √wReDh, and probably a bias against simple
> *weD too.  Do we see that? ... hm, "root" is *wreh2d-, isn't it.  That's
> not promising.
>

Yeah good point Alex.

I've always wondered about that restriction rule about two voiced stops in
one root. Has anybody ever concluded something noteworthy based on that? I
feel like that tells us a lot about the (original) pronunciation of those.

There was a change in East Semitic (which, as I said, had a bunch of
ejective phonemes) where the first of two ejectives in a single word would
de-glottalize and become ... well, normal, non-glottalic. PSem **qa****ṣ**
ārum* (q = [k?], ṣ = [s?])* >* Akkadian *ka**ṣārum* 'to tie' (this is
apparently called Geers' Law). It's similar to Grassmann's law in Greek and
Sanskrit but actually deals with glottalic consonants rather than
aspirates. There could have been something like Geers' law in
glottalic-theory-PIE!

matt


On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Roman Rausch <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> >Yes, I'm aware of the glottalic hypothesis.  I used to view it favourably
> but now, at best, hold this pre-stage view: the glottalic theory may
> >describe a stage of PIE before it had begun to break up, but even if so
> it isn't valid as an outcome of comparative reconstruction, only internal
> >reconstruction.  It's more problematic that ejectives should have been
> eliminated independently everywhere, as the (strong) glottalic theory
> >needs, than that a language should have /t d d_h\/ as its three series.
>
> I wonder why the same cannot be said about PIE laryngeals: It keeps
> bugging me that they dissolve in vowels everywhere except for Anatolian
> (which, as mentioned, seems to be an early split from PIE). Shouldn't one
> assume that they had disappeared already in late PIE?
>
> >I've e.g. also seen seriously proposed (I forget by whom) the idea that
> they were voiced spirants;
>
> Doesn't one run into the problem that their reflexes are stops throughout?
> Spirants don't seem to become stops very often - except maybe for
> interdental ones ([θ] > [d]), but even in this case, there are several
> possibilities of change into different spirants ([s], [f]).
>
> >Come to think of it, this should shed light on *b > *w as well; we would
> have no *wReD but some √wReT √wReDh, and probably a bias
> >against simple *weD too.  Do we see that?
> >... hm, "root" is *wreh2d-, isn't it.  That's not promising.
>
> But not every /w/ has to be a reflex of /b/, there may have been a merger
> of original /b/ and /w/, right? So one is free to postulate early /b/
> whenever it fulfills the root restrictions, and /w/ otherwise. Also, /w/
> may not be the only outcome of /b/.
>

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