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CONLANG  August 2012, Week 2

CONLANG August 2012, Week 2

Subject:

Re: PIE stops (was: Allophony in Siye)

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:29:23 +0200

Content-Type:

Text/Plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

Text/Plain (83 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On Sunday 12 August 2012 19:37:29 Roman Rausch wrote:

> >Yes, I'm aware of the glottalic hypothesis.  I used to view it favourably
> >but now, at best, hold this pre-stage view: the glottalic theory may
> >describe a stage of PIE before it had begun to break up, but even if so
> >it isn't valid as an outcome of comparative reconstruction, only internal
> >reconstruction.  It's more problematic that ejectives should have been
> >eliminated independently everywhere, as the (strong) glottalic theory
> >needs, than that a language should have /t d d_h\/ as its three series.
> 
> I wonder why the same cannot be said about PIE laryngeals: It keeps bugging
> me that they dissolve in vowels everywhere except for Anatolian (which, as
> mentioned, seems to be an early split from PIE). Shouldn't one assume that
> they had disappeared already in late PIE?

It is tempting to think that way, but there are problems, such
as the Greek triple reflex, which proves that the three laryngeals
must still have been there in one form or another in Late PIE.
So the case of the laryngeals shows that sound changes in a dozen
branches of a family *can* "conspire" to eliminate a class of
phonemes from every single branch of a far-flung family.

> >I've e.g. also seen seriously proposed (I forget by whom) the idea that
> >they were voiced spirants;
> 
> Doesn't one run into the problem that their reflexes are stops throughout?
> Spirants don't seem to become stops very often - except maybe for
> interdental ones ([θ] > [d]), but even in this case, there are several
> possibilities of change into different spirants ([s], [f]).

This is indeed a good reason to doubt that the traditional voiced
stops were fricatives.  They are reflected as fricatives in *no*
early Indo-European language (some *modern* IE languages have
fricatives dating back to them, but these result from changes
that are accounted for).  If there was any stop grade in PIE that
was close to being voiced fricatives, it was the breathy-voiced
one, not the plain voiced one.  (Indeed, it has been proposed
that the breathy-voiced stops actually were voiced fricatives;
but I have forgotten who said that.)
 
> >Come to think of it, this should shed light on *b > *w as well; we would
> >have no *wReD but some √wReT √wReDh, and probably a bias against simple
> >*weD too.  Do we see that?
> >... hm, "root" is *wreh2d-, isn't it.  That's not promising.
> 
> But not every /w/ has to be a reflex of /b/, there may have been a merger
> of original /b/ and /w/, right? So one is free to postulate early /b/
> whenever it fulfills the root restrictions, and /w/ otherwise. Also, /w/
> may not be the only outcome of /b/.

Yes.  Even if */b/ merged with */w/ in Pre-PIE (which is so far
just a hypothesis, with not really that much speaking for it),
there is no reason to assume that every /w/ we see in PIE is an
earlier /b/.

I think the glottalic hypothesis makes a better account for the
absence of */b/ than any speculations about a /b/-/w/ merger.
If */b/ merged with */w/, why didn't */bh/?  Also, as Alex says,
a chain shift /b/ > /bh/ > /w/ can be ruled out, as that would
have created irregularities in the root structure constraints
(which are in themselves a piece of evidence for glottalism).
In PIE, no two plain voiced stops occur in a single root, while
otherwise two stops in a root have to agree in their voicing
and aspiration.  PIE */bh/ behaves as it should regarding these
rules, and not like */b/.

ObConlang: In my Hesperic family, which is meant to be a sister
group of IE, I work with the glottalic hypothesis thus that I
accept it for Pre-PIE; in Hesperic, the glottalic stops lost
their glottalization and the plain voiceless stops are aspirated.
There are similar pieces of evidence for former glottalization
in Hesperic as there are in IE (e.g., near absence of */p/;
root structure constraints that forbid two neutral stops in a
root, while aspirated stops do not co-occur with voiced stops;
absence of neutral stops in inflectional affixes).

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1

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