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CONLANG  August 2012, Week 5

CONLANG August 2012, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Dscript for conlangers

From:

Matthew DeBlock <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 29 Aug 2012 22:45:37 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (240 lines)

> Matthew, it's hard to respond to you point by point, because I don't see
> how your points pertain to the questions of mine that you quoted.
>
> I make claims about engelanging, but not about engineering. I am an
> engelanger, but don't claim to be an engineer. I opine that science has
> relatively little to do with linguistics or with conlanging. (I draw a
> distinction between (empirical) science and (natural) philosophy, and
> locate linguistics mostly within the latter.) Nothing I do is
> pseudoscience, but to the very limited extent that science pertains to my
> work in linguistics and conlanging, I stick strictly to armchair science
> (no experimentation, no gathering of data beyond what can be easily
> gathered from within the comfort of one's own armchair; ideally somebody
> else does the empirical work and I just use the results).
>
> The script is an engescript because it has objectively assessable goals --
> i.e. the extent to which the design satisfies the goals can be objectively
> assessed. (And it's fully enge because all elements of its design are
> driven by such goals.) That's the definition of enginess.

this was my point

you goals can be objectivly assesed and approached

but you have not laid out a clear goals it seems. from our discussions you
goals were many, and when weakness in acheiving one goal are brought up,
they are justified by some other quality.

How do you define the "trade-off" equation between aspects?
is there a list of the "desired qualities"?

Without that, it just appears that you are evangelizing a construct by
using one quality to defend another, in a "cirle-jerk" of justifications
for status quo.

This methodolgy can argue anyting against anything.. and it is never
"wrong" because it never actually makes a claim or sets a clear goal

>
> I think you must be under the misapprehension that I was making an
> empirical -- scientific -- claim about the Livagian script (-- that it's
> easier to write than any other? than any other not formable from a single
> unbroken line?): but I make no such claim. I was -- pretty incidentally
> and casually -- making an armchair-scientific claim that
> direction-changing penlifts impede ease of writing, a claim based on the
> balance of the available evidence, but, as with all scientific claims, it
> is open to revision and repudiation if the available evidence increases.
> Whatever evidence can come the way of my armchair, I'm eager to get hold
> of.
>
> --And.
>
> Matthew DeBlock, On 27/08/2012 05:49:
>> you bring up many things I wish to address, but one in particular
>>
>> Quoting And:
>> " Is that just because engineering and science normally go together, so
>> that
>>   you're surprised to see something looking like the one without much of
>> the
>>   other? Or do you see a logical reason why it would be contradictory
>> for an
>>   engelang's goals to not be scientifically sound?"
>>
>>
>> As an engineer (mostly software and electronics) I find this statement
>> to
>> be strange.
>>
>> Engineering:
>> Engineering is the science, skill, and profession of acquiring and
>> applying scientific, economic, social, and practical knowledge, in order
>> to design and also build structures, machines, devices, systems,
>> materials
>> and processes.
>>
>> You cannot have engineering without science, it is a "subset" of
>> science,
>> all engineering must be based on science.
>>
>> Science is a 'funny' word, you can find many a definitions of what
>> science
>> is, but ask people in the scientific community, and you will hear a
>> resounding consensus
>>
>> The key element of science is the scientific method
>>
>> Methodology is everything!
>> Are you trying to prove yourself right or wrong?
>>
>> The scientific method, simply put, is the process of doubting yourself,
>> and seeking to prove yourself wrong.
>>
>> Pseudo-science is the 'art' of appearing scientifc while seeking
>> supporting evidence, and disregarding contrary evidence
>>
>> Everything you have said so far is pure 'pseudo-science', you are
>> relying
>> on intutions and assumptions. You say you will assimilate "better
>> information" if it comes along, btu that is NOT science, that is
>> 'psuedo-science'.
>>
>> I rather dislike the way so many people apply restrictive and biased
>> definitoins to words like science or evolution, evolution for example,
>> is
>> a proven process, but many say 'its just a theory'. Evolution is a
>> process, the evolution of man is a theory.
>>
>> I think it you should reconsider your deifniton of science.
>> Engineering - Science = Art/Design
>> Science - Scientific Method = Pseudo-Science
>> Progress - Scientific Method = Evolution
>>
>> I am not sure where you got your definitions of engineering and science.
>>
>> So.. in conclusion.. this is does not appear to be an ENGLANG(or
>> engscript)... it seems to be more of an ARTLANG(or artscript)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets, On 26/08/2012 20:15:
>>>> On 26 August 2012 20:20, And Rosta<[log in to unmask]>   wrote:
>>>>>> I stil dont understand your "prejudice against pen-lifting"
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps a penlift without a change in trajectory during the lift is
>>>>> okay.
>>>>> But otherwise I observe in the handwriting of me and others that the
>>>>> hastier the writing the less the pen lifts.
>>>>
>>>> Without an actual scientific study done on this, your claim is purely
>>>> anecdotal, and thus has little truth value. As I wrote before, the
>>>> faster I
>>>> write the more pen lifts I do. Naturally, that's also just anecdotal,
>>>> but
>>>> so is your claim.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, why are you so focussed on pen lifts and trying to
>>>> minimise
>>>> them, when you have no compelling evidence that they have any
>>>> influence
>>>> on
>>>> writing speed? The plural of anecdote is not data.
>>>
>>> Anecdotes are data, just not very clean and reliable data.
>>>
>>> But to answer your question: I do have evidence about pen lifts, of
>>> course, because I've described it in previous discussions, so I guess
>>> what
>>> you really mean to ask is how come I believe there's a tendency for pen
>>> lifts to reduce with speed, when this belief is consistent neither with
>>> your handwriting practice nor with any scientific study we know of.
>>> (Right?) If I were designing the script for you, then of course I'd
>>> give
>>> paramount weight to your preferences; that is, the design goals would
>>> be
>>> tailored to your preferences. But (of course) I'm designing it for me,
>>> to
>>> ergonomically fit me, but with a wish to make it available to all
>>> should
>>> it ever reach a state where it can be. Livagian is intended to be
>>> ideal/optimal/perfect (which is while it's normally in a state of
>>> rubble
>>> and ruin, collapsed under the weight of its own insupportable
>>> perfectionism), relative to my notions of what goals are desirable.
>>> With
>>> regard to the writability of the script, I judge, or deem, it desir
>>> able that it should be easily writable for people in general, not just
>>> for
>>> me; but the only source of information on what is easily writable for
>>> people in general is my own observation of my and others' handwriting
>>> (and
>>> stuff like your report of yours). If there were scientific studies
>>> squarely addressing writability and/or readability of pen-writable
>>> symbols
>>> in a generalized way, I'd consume them with great interest and take
>>> them
>>> into account.
>>>
>>>> You seem to try and design things from a strict engineering point of
>>>> view.
>>>> But your goals are less than scientifically sound. Looks contradictory
>>>> to
>>>> me...
>>>
>>> Is that just because engineering and science normally go together, so
>>> that
>>> you're surprised to see something looking like the one without much of
>>> the
>>> other? Or do you see a logical reason why it would be contradictory for
>>> an
>>> engelang's goals to not be scientifically sound?
>>>
>>> To the limited extent that science has any pertinence to linguistics
>>> and
>>> conlanging, I'm interested in what it has to tell us, but in setting
>>> design goals I'm content to be guided by whatever information I have
>>> available to me; I don't demand of myself that I go forth and conduct
>>> proper scientific experiments to provide better information. Rather, if
>>> I
>>> came by better information that would warrant the alteration of design
>>> goals, I'd just alter the design goals and redo the design.
>>>
>>>>> I designed the script to be as easy as possible to write (measured by
>>>>> characters per minute or suchlike) as well as to be compact. I might
>>>>> also
>>>>> have designed it to be easy to read, but had no intuitions or data on
>>>>> what
>>>>> makes scripts in general easy to read.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> You might want to look into this:
>>>> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=new-font-helps-dyslexics-read
>>>> It's about a font designed for dyslexic people
>>> [...]
>>>> Now, this is all about the Roman alphabet, so the principles may not
>>>> work
>>>> on other scripts, but it's still interesting to know about it. I
>>>> personally
>>>> find the resulting font not that pleasing aesthetically, but I must
>>>> admit
>>>> that reading a full article in it was easier than reading it in my
>>>> normal
>>>> screen font (DejaVu Sans, which is already slightly larger than Arial,
>>>> for
>>>> instance), even in the same point size.
>>>
>>> I've come across this sort of stuff -- what is (alleged to be) more
>>> readable for dyslexics and what is less -- in my day job, as a result
>>> of
>>> the duty to make reasonable adjustments for the disabled. I didn't know
>>> of
>>> this interesting-looking (and yes, ugly!) font. When I looked at Shwa
>>> script I had the impression that it was designed to be
>>> dyslexia-friendly,
>>> without contrastive rotations and reflections.
>>>
>>> --And.
>>>
>

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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
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June 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
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April 1999, Week 1
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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