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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  August 2012, Week 5

CONLANG August 2012, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Of cubes & triangles

From:

Iuhan Culmærija <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 29 Aug 2012 11:01:32 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (187 lines)

Thank you all for the responses and perspectives

2012/8/28 Jrg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Tuesday 28 August 2012 18:57:33 R A Brown wrote:
>
> > On 28/08/2012 10:52, Iuhan Culmrija wrote:
> > > Dags!
>
>

> [snip]
> >
> > > 2012/8/27 Jrg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>
> > >
> > >> Hallo conlangers!
> > >>
> > >> 1.1. Naturalistic 1.1.1. A priori 1.1.2. Mixed 1.1.3. A
> > >> posteriori 1.2. Non-naturalistic 1.2.1. Non-human
> > >> languages 1.2.2. Abstract artlangs 2. Auxlangs 2.1. A
> > >> priori 2.1.1. Taxonomic 2.1.2. Non-taxonomic 2.2.
> > >> Mixed 2.3. A posteriori 2.3.1. Autonomous
> > >> 2.3.2.Naturalistic 3. Engelangs 3.1. Philosophical 3.2.
> > >> Logical 3.3. Experimental
> > >
> > > I don't know whether I want to phrase this as a question
> > > or statement - but why do we need to include
> > > Auxlang-ness on the diagram?
> >
> > I'm not sure whether 'auxlang-ness' actually has any meaning.
>
>
which is precisely why I struggled to see how it could be measured in the
diagram (triangle, cube or even colourful hexagon).
However, I think the Lojban example resolves this issue.


> I think Iuhan thinks of "being intended as an auxlang by the
> author".
>
> >   _Anything_ can be an auxlang. The only
> >
> > > defining factor is the creator's intention; even Quenya
> > > could have been proposed as an auxlang, but does that
> > > detract from its artistic qualities?
> >
> > Precisely!  I recall several years ago an auxlang nerd asked
> > people on _this_ list to name the ten ten languages they
> > thought most suitable for auxlangs.  I recall I had Quenya,
> > Kinya and Tepa as my top three (I don't recall the exact
> > order); what the other languages were I forget now, but none
> > of them were 'auxlangs.'  I was annoyed that someone should
> > stray from that Other list and waste our time with such a
> > question.
>
> And you were justly so, as this kind of question is expressly
> *off-topic* here!  That's what AUXLANG is for!
>
>
I hadn't intended to discuss Quenya (or any artlangs') appropriateness as
an auxlang - Although in hindsight I see that the question-mark kinda made
it seem that way. (I think "no auxlang as auxlangs" follows soon after
"NCNC" on the FAQ which gets sent every other month.)

It was more of a rhetorical question to substantiate my view.I'd hoped it
would prove that: one can measure how artistic a conlang is (and Quenya is
very artlangy); and one can measure the engelang characteristics of a
conlang (not to restart the Brithenig
debate)<http://www.frathwiki.com/Brithenig>-- but being an auxlang is
the creators decision and thus not measurable.
BUT THEN the Lojban example was given.


> > But, of course, there is no reason why Quenya could not be
> > developed and used as an auxlang.
>
> *Any* language that is usable by human beings can in principle
> work as an auxlang, though one can argue that certain features
> makes a language especially suitable - only that there is no
> complete agreement on *which* features those are, and that is
> the reason behind the Great Sundering!  So much on this.
>
> > It is the author's intention that marks them out as
> > auxlangs.  But the reason they get one apex in the Gnoli
> > triangle is the same reason this list split way back in 1996
> > and a separate Auxlang list was formed.
>
>
Ok. That makes sense :)


> > > The auxlang category, in my opinion, is more like a
> > > yes/no box aside from the diagram.
> > >
> > > For a general catagorisation (like the Gnoli triangle) I
> > > think a line can work, for example:
> > >
> > > ENGE
> > > ------------x----------------------------------------ART
> > >
> > >  Lang01
> >
> > You can't put a yes-no box inside a line   ;)
>
> Indeed not.
>
>
next to the line?
:


> > > For the more detailed characteristics (I think Jrg's
> > > list describes them clearly)
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > > something like a cube can work.
> >
> > On reflection, however you define the axes, you're going to
> > oversimplify and find that some conlangs are so contrary
> > they fit neatly into you're cube.
>
> Certainly.  The universe of conlangs is very complex and not only
> multidimensional, but also far from "box-shaped"!
>
> > But i don't think 'auxlangity' can be measured on
> >
> > > an axis, line or vertex.
> >
> > I think even with 'auxlangity' there are degrees.
> > Esperanto, for example, was intended from the outset to be
> > an auxlang, and its author designed it with that sole
> > purpose in mind.
>
> Yes.  Using it for international communication is the sole
> purpose for which Zamenhof invented it, even if there may
> have been some aesthetic considerations in his development
> of the language.
>
> >       Although lojbanists claim their language
> > can be used as a conlang,
>
> You probably mean "used as an auxlang" - a conlang it already is!
>
> >        that was not the original reason
> > the language was developed.  Even now, lojban does not claim
> > only to be an auxlang:
> > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojban
> >
> > So I think few people would disagree that lojban has less
> > auxlangity than Esperanto, and would appear more around the
> > center of the auxlang-engelang axis.
>
> Sure.  Esperanto is an almost "pure" auxlang; Ithkuil is an
> almost "pure" engelang; Lojban is somewhere in between.
>
> > But the Gnoli triangle is essentially just a pragmatic
> > device arising from historic developments mainly on this list.
>
> Yep.  As I said a few hours ago, one can perhaps argue that
> auxlangs are a particular kind of engelangs, the same way
> taxonomic and logical languages are particular kinds of
> engelangs.
>

I hadn't considered the following 'but'  ...


> But perhaps it is meaningful to single out the auxlangs for
> historical reasons; they are the most "publicly visible" kind
> of conlanging, and a matter of politicking of a sort that is
> not found with other kinds of conlangs.  The very purpose of
> the auxlang means that "there can be only one", and each new
> proposed auxlang thus implicitly involves a rejection of every
> other auxlang, while (other) engelangs can co-exist with each
> other without any problems, just as artlangs do.
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bsel asa am, a am atha cvanthal a cvanth atha amal." - SiM 1:1
>

Iuhan

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December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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