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CONLANG  August 2012, Week 5

CONLANG August 2012, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Real names

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 31 Aug 2012 11:29:20 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (236 lines)

--- On Fri, 8/31/12, Sam Stutter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> To get really philosophical, Brian,
> do you believe a name is something one is given, or
> something one has in oneself? 

For me, names can be given by oneself or by others. Clearly, everyone in
modern Western society (and probably in most every other place east, south
or north) has a given name of some sort.

It's just a matter of cultural evolution that we are moving again to a
situation where an individual can have different names in different 
contexts. I think we're just going to have to get used to things like
"Borschtforlife777" as an actual name; and also that names given at birth
(or baptism or whatever) are no more "real" than any other identifier.

Just because Uncle Sam keeps an official record of a name or a national
id number does not mean he has any kind of power over the individual. Well,
he has no power over the individual that that individual's society is not
willing to grant him through its own malice or complacency!

> Names, in Celtic mythology
> certainly, and so presumably elsewhere, have always been
> something dreadfully important: knowing someone's true name
> is a method of control. 

Good idea never to divulge that name. Better still to never buy into this
notion at all! [*]

> And if you've ever read Jean Rhyss'
> _Wide Sargasso Sea_ you'll know how Rochester changes
> Antoinette's name in order to have some degree of control
> over her. In modern society, along the your national
> security number (or whatever), your name is something used
> to keep track of you and, for the more paranoid amongst us,
> a method of direct control.
> 
> If you were born, alone on a desert island, with no one to
> talk to, ignoring the question of whether you would have an
> internal language to orchestrate your thoughts, would you
> give yourself a name? How would you make sense of the "me"
> living in your head? Cue Doctor Who references such as
> "Stormagedon, Dark Lord of All" and a Farside cartoon
> entitled "Names we give dogs and the names dogs give
> themselves".

It's probable that if you're born alone on a desert island that you'd never
develop language at all. If you were born elsewhere and became stranded
alone on a desert island ("Lord of the Flies" without all the flies), then
I'd hazard the guess that you might could hang on to that name with a
fierceness just in order to maintain some sense of civilisation and
normality in the face of utter isolation.

Perhaps this will depend on the individual. Internally, I don't address
myself by any name. I know that I am and don't need to keep reminding
myself of what other people call me by. I don't expect that would change
just because of being stranded on an island.
 
> If a name is something you give yourself, something
> consensual, then it's a way of defining yourself and selling
> yourself 

Names can indeed be a way of selling yourself -- authors and media folks
often use pseudonyms or stage names in order to sell their product. Who
sounds more likely to be an opera star: Alessandro Blondini or Peter Poffe?

> - hence it's probably useful in the modern world to
> be able to use different names to sell yourself differently
> in different spheres / communities. I know judging a book by
> it's cover is supposedly Bad, but a cover usually tells you
> everything you need to know about how a person interacts
> with the world or wants to be perceived by the world: a name
> is just part of a person's dust jacket.

Well, the cover of a book only tells you about the marketing aims of the
publisher and the erotic fantasies of the artist, not so much about the 
content of the book itself. A lot of books with exciting cover art and 
enticing blurbs on the back have turned out to be horrifically unreadable
as stories.

As for people, you really can't judge by first impressions. You don't know
if someone is having a bad day, or if they are always cranky; of if it's 
really you yourself that is the problem. It can take a long while to
*really* come to learn how a person interacts with the world and wants to
be perceived. Anything less is in my opinion harmfully and perhaps even
morally superficial and ultimately unhelpful in so far as creating and
maintaining a relationship of some sort goes.

> If it's something people impose upon you, then it's a method
> by which other people attempt to control who you are -
> particularly as names have actual encoded meanings, rather
> than just being "suggestive" of a meaning.

You still have to buy into this.
 
> If it's the former, pseudonyms are a human right and, from
> speaking to Sai on Google+, I learn that self definition is
> part of common law. 

Indeed, though "Sai" is not a pseudonym! He has simply taken this whole
conversation to its logical conclusion, has claimed the fundamental right
to his Own Name and has declared what that Name shall be.

> If it's the latter, then that's really
> unfair and needs to be changed. Hence, you've got two types
> of pseudonym: the first disguises your true identity - to
> prevent control, and the second reveals what you believe
> your true identity actually is - to gain control over your
> identity.

The question then: are these really pseudonyms? Especially the latter. I
think there is a continuum, as with most things.

> *Actually*, if anyone thinks this is going OT, well, ha,
> because this is exactly the right place to bring it back to
> conlanging. In many cultures, one is given a name at birth
> and then chooses one oneself when you come of age. How does
> your conlang:

I'll answer for Auntimoanye of the Eastlands:
 
> a) coin names?

Names in this culture fall into a number of broad categories. Very many
are religious in nature, so you find a lot of folk named Lucam, Thomam,
Jhonam, Wethanam, Węlundaz, Wandez, Maryam, Lelspethez, Yastrez, Nerthez
and the like. Others are ordinary words -- animals, flowers, aspects of
nature -- used as names: Wolfaz, Gondolfaz, Rederunez, Hyldegardez,
Sturmgardaz and the like. Still others are foreign transplants: 
Rumeliardez, Cgeoliam, Ruofuz, Lybias, Chaam, etc.

> b) give them to people?

Kristian children are formally given their name at chrismation (Baptism
being something you get in your teens), but the ceremony is very much
like infant baptism *here*. Pagan children are given their names at birth.
You might think that you wouldn't find many Pagans named Maryam or many 
Kristians names Wethanam, but that's not the case at all! You do find a
lot of name mixing. Daine, though accounted neither Kristian nor Pagan,
also give their children their first name at birth.

> c) are there differences / similarities between names for
> each gender?

Masculine names tend to end in -az (the old Proto-Thietish masculine
a-stem ending) or -am (a much later development of unknown provenance);
feminine names tend to end in -ez (the old e/i-stem ending). Avantimannish
doesn't have grammatical gender, so those clues don't help so much
anymore. The traditional biradical Thietish names tend to be rather
similar for both men and women -- strong words involving mighty beasts
like wolves, bears, foxes, auroxen, olifants; warlike pursuits; mythic
heroes and races (keeping in mind that most of these ain't all that
mythological); wisdom and magical terms.

> d) use names for genetic continuity / heritage (if at all)?

Family names would fall under this category. In general terms, family
names are a thing in flux. Names can change as family fortunes or even
the nature of one's business change. The only people that really have
true "family names" are landed nobility, and a nobleman or woman's family
name only derives from their association with the land. Just because you
were born Markam wan Suthrondalos doesn't mean you always will be. If you
marry into a different family, your family name would change, though you
might append your former affiliation: Markam on Angrenfeld was 
Suthrondalos.

> e) etc

Ekcettris interspersis

And then among the Daine of Westmarche, the country bordering Auntimoanye 
to the west:

> a) coin names?

In the Westmarche, the Daine speak a language similar to Avantimannish.
Perhaps something more akin to a creole with Thietish lexicon and their
own grammar superimposed.

Name words are, like their Mannish neighbors', simply taken from the words
in everyday use. There are quite a few verifiably ancient Daine names the
meanings of which are largely forgotten if they ever had a particular
meaning (other Daine are known to bestow semantically meaningless names).

> b) give them to people?

Unlike most other Daine, those of WM are given a Name but once in their
lives, though they may take nicknames or other names on their own later
in life as they please.

One name is given by each parent and each godparent, so everyone has at
least four names to start with. If your father has three wives, then
you'd have six names.

Of these names, your eldest sister will pick one seems best to be your
"common name" or first name. The other names are used on formal occasions but your first name how everyone around knows you and generally how
friends and visitors from far away will be introduced.

During childhood, your siblings and cousins will naturally give you one or
more nicknames and by adolescence (say 20 to 25 years) you'll almost
certainly have given yourself a name or two.

So you get folks with names like Appenybret Whitteth Forspon Ponchfang 
(Halfpenny-Bright White-Tooth Old-Spoon Five-Fangs) who calls herself 
Moonwolf but everyone knows her as Lil Bit cos she's so short, and really
can't do much about it. You can probably guess which name her younger 
brothers call her...

> c) are there differences / similarities between names for
> each gender?

No. Daine don't really go in for "girls names" and "boys names". The only
exceptions are the names Enca & Nima (both girls name) and Nico (a boys
name) -- these are the names of ancient culture heroes and are generally
assigned to girls and boys according to long standing custom.

> d) use names for genetic continuity / heritage (if at all)?

Daine in general don't have family names as such, nor even m/patronymics.
In WM, you might be further known by some geographical surname or by
what province you're from. But those are really just further nicknames,
not any kind of official name.

[*] In the World, that notion, that knowing the True Name of something or
someone has some validity. While even an Adept can't change the very
being of something or compel someone to do something against his very
nature armed only with a True Name, there are things that can be done. A
wolf may be compelled to savage your enemy with unaccountable ferocity,
but he can't make the poor beastie climb the tree to get you kind of thing.

Padraic

> Sam Stutter (pretty much my legal name)

Padraic

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November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
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August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
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October 1999, Week 1
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September 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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