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CONLANG  October 2012, Week 3

CONLANG October 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Phonetics, phonemics and Chinese

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:59:37 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (143 lines)

On 14/10/2012 19:30, George Corley wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 1:16 PM, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]

>> Which sort of begs the question what is Pinyin for? If
>> the Chinese merely wanted an internal phonetic
>> rendering of the standard language they already had
>> bopomofo, which is derived from traditional Chinese
>> writing, and had no need to use any western script. It
>> only makes sense to me to choose the Roman script if
>> one wants to facilitate communication with the
>> external world.  In this case, surely, some regard
>> ought to have paid to the way the Roman script is
>> generally used.
>
> Implementing Bopomofo at this point could be somewhat
> politically sensitive, as it is strongly associated with
> Taiwan

Sigh - yes, you're right.  Also the whole history of the
different Romanizations of the 20th century is shot through
with politics.  System are abandoned and others adopted not
for linguistic reasons but for political ones.

That's why I've ceased to give my ideas of romanizing
Mandarin; Pinyin is not going to be dropt unless there is a
change to the political system.  But even if that were to
happen, I somehow don't think I or anyone on this list will
be asked our opinion on any changes  ;)

>> . So it doesn't make
>>
>>> my Top Two List of Bad Design Choices in Pinyin:
>>>
>>> (2) The use of a single diacriticked basic letter Ü.
[snip]
>>> _segmental_ property of the syllable.  Why couldn't
>>> this be kept clean?
>>>
>>
>> Well, it could have been kept clean of course.
>
> The umlaut is quite problematic, and can cause confusion
> (for instance, both lu and lü are possible syllables, and
> the same is true for n-initial).

Yep - as things the Chinese don't seem any fonder of
diacritics (except for teaching purposes) than your average
anglophone, it is indeed problematic.

[snip]
>>>
>>
>> I knew that _yu_ was used in place of ü after l- and
>> n- by some, but I wasn't aware that _v_ was also
>> similarly used - ach y fi!
>
>
> It may be influenced by technology.  Every pinyin input
> method I have used uses the v key for ü, probably
> because that key would not be used otherwise

OK.
=======================================================

On 14/10/2012 19:39, BPJ wrote:
> On 2012-10-14 08:39, Alex Fink wrote:
[snip]
>>
>> (1) The evisceration of the finals like WEI and YOU to
>> UI and IU when they follow a nonzero initial. Dear Ghu,
>> why? And don't give me any claptrap about brevity: if
>> brevity were really the concern, we could have had WI ~
>> UI and YU ~ IU in every context!
>
> Actually those two are connected: if you consistently use
> _you/iou_ you free up _yu/iu_ to be used for [y]!

Which is basically what Gwoyeu Romatzyh did and some other
systems have done.

I would write it as _ju_ in all contexts - but enough of
that!

[snip]

>>
>> Maybe these Romanizers should have hired people from
>> the Conlang list to help them out.
>
> Dang, I'd done it for free!

So have I in the past and IIRC a few other conlangers have;
but I fear the Communist Party of China will not heed us  ;)

==========================================================

On 14/10/2012 19:55, George Corley wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 1:39 PM, BPJ wrote:
[snip]
>>
>> The very same argument is even more valid against
>> using _q x c z(h)_ as pinyin uses them! _Qing, xi,
>> cai, zhang_ get very horribly mispronounced, as does
>> _j_ by Swedish newsreaders, I might add!
>>
>
> Anglophone newsreaders also misread _j_, but only because
> of a hyperforeignism.

I know - apparently to many anglophone minds "foreign j"
means 'like the French do it', i.e. [ʒ].

This is why Swadesh used _dj_ in his system.

[snip]

>> It does make my Top Three list, especially after having
>> watched a 2 h documentary about the [kw]in Emperor and
>> his grave!
[snip]
>
> If someone was making a 2 hour documentary, they should
> have looked up the pronunciations and taught them to the
> narrator.  That's a failure of the producers of that
> show more than of pinyin.

I agree entirely.  The above two mispronunciations are by
newsreaders and program narrators are inexcusable.  My
quibble with "Chongkwing" is that naive tourists,
businessmen etc are liable to pronounce it that way; and the
'person in the street' will read _Qin_ as "kwin", whatever
newsreaders or narrators may say.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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