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CONLANG  October 2012, Week 3

CONLANG October 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: ideology & linguistics

From:

"Mike S." <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 18 Oct 2012 15:36:11 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (164 lines)

A number of quotes are misattributed in the previous email.  I would
suggest the reader read the previous exchange directly.

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:10 AM, Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> There is a great deal in this thread that I'd like to respond to, but
> haven't had the time or inclination. However....
>
> RM: Unless you're watching TV, you really don't know the ethnic or
> regional/linguistic background of the newscaster.  "Radio Announcer School"
> tends to indoctrinate every student in a sort of Midwest/Chicago accent.  I
> found this to be the case when I lived in the Boston area, as well as NYC,
> and on visits to Florida. In the 1950s, when the Army stationed me in South
> Carolina  one would hear both local and "Standard" accents on the radio.
>

I think even now a person hears both in most places don't they? Here in
Connecticut I definitely hear local accents in the local news.  And I have
also heard them elsewhere when traveling, though I don't travel extremely
frequently so maybe I have overestimated the prevalence of local accents in
local news over all.



> RM  Perhaps in countries like France, Germany, Spain, Italy, China, with
> many regional varieties, that may be true. But I don't believe it to be the
> case in the US, where we have only three main dialect areas-- New England
> (moribund, I suspect), the South (several varieties), and all the rest of
> the country (minor differences, we are told, on the west coast).
>

As far as New England, attenuated perhaps, but not moribund.  A GA accent
has been slowly spreading eastward, but everything from Rhode Island to
southern Maine is still nonrhotic and often "bother" & "father" don't
rhyme.  In South Boston one still hears what I think is an Irish version of
how Yankees used to talk (also nonrhotic unlike Ireland).  In northern
Vermont, northern New Hampshire, and rural Maine heading towards maritime
Canada one hears a Yankee country accent for lack of a better description.


> I am interested in this topic, but from what little you've said so far,
> > (and I honestly don't mean any offense) I find your understanding of left
> > and right at least half a century out of date, at least for the USA.  The
>
> > "bourgeois" that you seem to disdain control the corporate and political
> apparati....
>
> RM I suspect most CEOs and their brethren, not to mention Mr. Romney,
> would deeply resent being called "bourgeois". The class structure in the US
> is quite different from that of the UK; mainly because we have no
> hereditary "nobility/peerage" (wealthy or not), though we do have an
> upper(-middle) class that is often based on wealth from at least 3
> generations back; or the newly rich, who fancy themselves members of that
> class but usually are not--with enough education and luck, they can come
> from almost any level of society. Bourgeois, at least to my mind, refers to
> the vast (but now shrinking) middle class (small businessmen, some farmers,
> shop-owners and to some extent their employees; then a "proletariat" aka
> working or lower class, of laborers of various sorts. Finally, of course,we
> have an underclass of idlers, criminals (petty or not) and the genuinely
> disadvantaged (from many causes.).
>

What your "bourgeois" seems to refer to is the "petit-bourgeois".  I
thought that And was using the term to mean the upper class.


>
> > that are aggressively implementing all sorts of policies that seem
> leftist to me.....
>
> RM You are entitled to that opinion......
>
> > They are
> > the ones actively subjecting White working class people to
> > "sensitivity training" (leftist indoctrination)...
>
> RM telling people not to refer to their fellow workers with racial
> epithets, not to harass the women they work with-- that's leftist? I call
> it common decency. And a valid attempt to decrease tension and produce a
> pleasant working environment , which will also increase efficiency.
>

Thank you for this, but I don't actually *need* to be reminded that common
decency is expected on the job.  To the extent that a few stupid people do
need that reminder, I can tolerate it, just as I can tolerate warning
labels on screwdrivers that say "Do not stick this in your eye".  What I
find hard to tolerate is PC commissars, claiming to admire "tolerance" but
plainly seething with ressentiment, using the prospect of job termination
to intimidate workers into pretending to embrace someone else's
self-interested moonbat political dogma & agenda.


>
> > and "affirmative
> > action" (job displacement and exclusion from university enrollment)
>
> RM there have been abuses and mistakes in that policy to be sure.
>

Yes I have detected that even the staunchest liberals secretly realize this
but are usually too afraid to admit it, so I respect this admission.



>  Most of the people who consume Fox News
> > (if this might stand as a sort of US analog of the Daily Telegraph)
> > are in the lower strata of society.
>
> RM Whatever stratum (and all are represented) they may be in, IMO their
> main problem with Pres. Obama is....the color of his skin.
>

I was hoping that no one would stoop to the "Whoever didn't vote for my
candidate secretly has a problem with skin color" canard. What this
*usually* means is "Hooray for me, I am a true hipster voting for a Black
person, much more enlightened and much more sophisticated than the
detestable hayseeds voting for a White person."  IMO the 2008 election was
driven far more by class insecurity than by skin color.

It was requested that we not talk about presidential politics, and frankly
it's actually not that important.  The reason that White working people are
migrating to the Republican Party isn't about Obama per se, and it isn't
about skin color.  It's because the Democratic Party has been practically
screaming to the world for fifty years that they are *not* the party of the
downtrodden and particularly not of wage slaves, but only of special,
handpicked interest groups (among whom the truly disadvantaged have seen
almost no progress) and of middle-class to upper-middle-class professionals
Whites who like to think of themselves as cool and progressive.

Contrary to brain-dead DP vitriol, generally speaking, neither the working
people they've systematically alienated over fifty years nor the Republican
Party could care less about skin color.  The only color that Republicans
care about is green.  Everyone knows that the Republicans aren't going to
help working people, but they are increasingly going to get their votes
because they're politically astute enough at least not to sneer at them in
their faces and falsely accuse them of having a problem with skin color.



>
> RM As do I. I do believe that Mike is conflating "left(ism)" with
> "liberal(ism)", as many do nowadays. But they are hardly equivalent.
>

I didn't mean to do that.  I am happy to equate leftism with And's
description of an ideology based on a desire for equality and helping out
the downtrodden, and "liberalism" with hipster elitism, PC conformity, and
class insecurity.



>
> Sorry for the NCNC rant, but I didn't start it :-)))))) (And sorry too,
> that for some reason, line-wrap didn't seem to be working in this post.)
>

We'll have to pull the plug soon.  It's been fun though.

-- 
co ma'a mke

Xorban blog: Xorban.wordpress.com <http://xorban.wordpress.com/>
My LL blog: Loglang.wordpress.com <http://loglang.wordpress.com/>

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