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CONLANG  October 2012, Week 3

CONLANG October 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Chengyu / Set Phrases (was: Yemoran Expressions)

From:

Padraic Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 16 Oct 2012 17:18:46 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (260 lines)

--- On Mon, 10/15/12, Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Another source of much inspiration is the Chinese chengyu, or four word
> phrase.  These are idioms that almost always have four characters (so not
> necessarily four words -- in fact, in translation, usually many more) and
> are often abbreviations or allusions to famous pieces of literature.  For
> example

These have been mentioned before and seem like a fascinating area of folk
wisdom. Do you know of an accessible source that collects (and perhaps even
organises) chengyu and also interprets them with their accompanying story?
I understand there are thousands of accepted chengyu, so any collection
would necesarily be quite large. Have these even been much studied in Da 
Qin?

Of course, we have the same phenomenon in English as well, and perhaps
other languages as well, though perhaps not so well codified. And of 
course they're not always four words. Like "pot kettle black" or "the die 
is cast". Like with chengyu, one needs to know the context giving story in 
order to understand the meaning of the set phrases.

> *sān rén chéng hǔ  (Three men make a tiger)*
> *
> *
> Literally, this is nonsense, but it's an allusion to a story
> about a report
> of a tiger bothering a distant village.  One person
> reporting it might be
> rumor, two might still be rumor, but if three people report
> it, it gets believed.

Made perfect sense to me, though in North America we might say "bear" or
"coyote" in stead of tiger... I'd be hard to pressed to believe the
third man who said he saw a tiger around here, or would be more likely to
believe he went to the zoo. Now, a bear, that I'd believe!

> In the original story, this was a parable about how people will
> believe an absurd thing if enough people repeat the lie.  So now it's 
> used in similar situations.  
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_men_make_a_tiger

This aspect of the chengyu is of course lost without knowing this 
particular story. My natural interpretation aligned with the above story.

I guess the American version would be a false friend!

> You could have something similar, if develop a few short
> stories from your culture and then translate key phrases into your 
> conlang.

Indeed. These are common bits of sawyery in the World. For example, on
pots calling kettles black, there is this gem from Angera, in the western
vales of Auntimoany:

One time there was a very fine house in the country and a very rich earl
called Hoght and he lived there with his wife and family and all his 
household. He was not only very rich, but he was also very proud. So 
proud indeed was Hoght that when he came to the City, he went around with 
his nose in the air as if he could scarcely deign to breathe the same air 
as the people in the street around him.

This pride of  the earl's was terribly infectious. Not only was the earl
proud, but so too were his wife and his children. And not only was his
family proud, but so were his servants and household. The earl's footmen
regularly pushed their way though a crowd and bossed merchants and citizens
alike as if they too were mighty lords; and in the house, the earl's 
kitchen staff were terribly proud. The maids would regularly brag about
all the gold they had to polish and Cook always shoved everyone else
out of the way at market, even if she wasn't buying. She always took the
best quality vegetables and meat available. Even the cook of the poor old bishop was left to make do with second rate victuals.

And in that same earl's Kitchen there lived a brass teapot and a broad
copper stew kettle. The broad kettle was always busy, taking care of the
many stews and soups that Cook made in a day. He was a humble sort of 
kettle, always black on the outside from the scorching fires blazing away 
in the heart of the roaring great cast iron stove; but he was justifiably 
proud of the delicious stews he helped cook and he always kept his inside 
scrubbed and shiny.

Now, the brass tea pot was terribly vain and always kept herself shiny and
bright, like the golden samovar that she so envied and who served out at
Table. She only had to work hard maybe an hour a day, whenever her
ladyship desired to take a cup of tea, and so she had much time to 
daydream about life outside the Kitchen.

One day, the wooden spoons, ever the garrulous lot, got into an argument
over the merits of serving at Table out in the Hall, like the shiny golden
spoons. The stock spoon and the ladle thought twould be ever so dandy,
having a white-gloved footman buff and shine one up, but the long handled
soup spoon, who often worked with the copper kettle, felt sure that life 
in the Kitchen was good enough for any wooden spoon and was content with 
her lot.

The stock spoon and the ladle laughed at that: "Ho ho! Will yez hark at
that gennle fowks! Good enough, eh? Well friend, zòme of uz iz lookin to
move up in this yer world and make something more of uz zelvez and 
wouldn't mind a-tall havin a  go out to Table!"

At this point, the brass tea pot, who was merrily bubbling away on one of
the back burners, piped up and said: "Oh will ye list at them two old
splinters of wood! The two of ye serve at Table? What rot! Now, Ae make
the Tea for our distinguished Ladyship, as ye well know, while the two of
ye do what? Oh yes, ye stir up that sludgy gravy Cook makes for the meat.
What drudge! Now Ae thinks Ae knows just a bit more about the refaened 
life outside these doors than ever ye will! The cheek, thinking that two 
old cracked wood spoons could serve in the place of shiny utensils like the
gold spoons, or even not at all unlike maeself! Huh. Ye two are ever as 
mucky as yon old stew kettle!"

"Bull feathers!" burbled the usually taciturn water cistern, a great glass
and copper affair that skulked about in the corner of the Kitchen, from
which he could see and hear everything that went on in the place. "Thee
should look to thyself, old brass tea bucket!" (She recoiled at being
called a "bucket" as if that were the worst thing one could be called,
and immediately started whistling indignantly.) "Whistle away, mistress
Pot! Thou's no different as any of us here in Kitchen. Ain't no shame in
that, but none o us is ever goin to serve at Table, we being nowt but
umble beins o copper and brass and wood. And here's the proud brass Pot
callin the Kettle black, puttin on airs when she should look at her own
black bottom some time!" 

Everyone in Kitchen from the butter tuns to the ancient iron frying pan
hanging from his pin on the wall had a laugh at the haughty tea pot's
expense, for indeed it is as the Wise say: the fool puts on airs and seeks
to condemn his neighbor for the speck on his face all the while neglecting
the broad smudge on his own face. For indeed when the pot calls the kettle
black, he is seeking to convince others of his own superiority  even when
the facts themselves speak contrarywise.

Padraic


 
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Nicole Valicia
> Thompson-Andrews <
> [log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> 
> > I meant sayings and slang expressions.
> >
> > Emerging poet
> > Pen Name Mellissa Green
> > Budding novelist
> > tweet me
> >
> >
> >
> > GreenNovelist
> >
> > blog
> >
> >
> > www.theworldofyemora.**wordpress.com<http://www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nikolay Ivankov"
> <[log in to unmask]
> > >
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 8:16 AM
> > Subject: Re: Yemoran Expressions
> >
> >
> >
> >  That's the question that make people like me come
> to the conlang list.
> >> Because Your question may actually be interpreted
> as "how do I create a
> >> language?". And since the whole list is functioning
> for such a long lime,
> >> with different people of different ages,
> nationalities and views still
> >> have
> >> plenty of stuff to discuss for so many years, this
> question could not be
> >> answered lightly.
> >>
> >> As a novice in that, I can recommend learning a new
> language. It's the
> >> easiest way to become on par with the terminology.
> Also, every new
> >> language
> >> you learn gives you new unexpected insights. For me
> learning Japanese was
> >> a
> >> mind-blowing experience, and though I have almost
> forgotten this languages
> >> within the years that passed since then, it has
> strongly influenced me
> >> and,
> >> finally, led me here.
> >>
> >> One could have also suggested reading some more
> theoretical works, but I'm
> >> afraid they are seldom available as audiobooks or
> even in a format that
> >> could be read by a voice-generator. I'm definitely
> not sure, but I had to
> >> take the books I needed from the library, for they
> are also quite
> >> expensive. I hope that this may be different with
> the language courses -
> >> in
> >> the end, in most more or less big cities it is
> always possible to just
> >> attend one.
> >>
> >> Once you get familiar with basic constructions and
> how they vary in
> >> different languages, you have much more space for
> imagination. And that's
> >> when you may start to fancy, how such and such
> phrase may sound in your
> >> conlang. Here, again, we all have much freedom.
> Language itself is a piece
> >> of art, just like a novel or a verse. Other people
> can give advises, share
> >> common patterns, but that's it.
> >>
> >> Sorry, if my e-mail was not helpful. That is as
> much as I can suggest.
> >>
> >> Best luck with Yermona!
> >>
> >> Kolya
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 8:13 AM, Nicole Valicia
> Thompson-Andrews <
> >> [log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>  How do I create Yemoran expressions?
> >>> Emerging poet
> >>> Pen Name Mellissa Green
> >>> Budding novelist
> >>> tweet me
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> GreenNovelist
> >>>
> >>> blog
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> www.theworldofyemora.**wordpress.com<http://www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com>
> >>>
> >>>
> 
> 
> -- 
> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now
> available for
> order from Finishing Line
> Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> and
> Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
>


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December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
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November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
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July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
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October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
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