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CONLANG  October 2012, Week 3

CONLANG October 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Solutions for Bad Romanizations

From:

George Corley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:14:50 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (113 lines)

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 1:51 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On 16 October 2012 22:26, George Corley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >
> > People do make actual errors,
>
> {snip}

>
> Now, people do make slips of the tongue, or think one word and say another,
> etc. If those are felt as wrong, they will be corrected instantly, usually
> by the speaker themself. If not, then who's to say that those are really
> mistakes, rather than just the starting point of a language change?
>

There are whole classes of "slips of the tongue" that linguists study
specifically, and that they call errors in their academic research:
word-replacement errors, malapropisms, spoonerisms, and many more!  Now,
the point of studying these errors is not necessarily to correct them, but
rather to use them to discover things about how the mind works.  Indeed, it
may be impossible to completely eliminate production errors from our speech
-- it just happens naturally, because our language production mechanism is
sub-optimal.


> > and a linguist can determine things about
> > writing style that can potentially lead to better understanding of the
> > text.
>
>
> I disagree. What you are talking about is text interpretation, which is a
> very different exercise from linguistic analysis. Payne has a good
> discussion at the end of "Describing Morphosyntax" on why those two are
> very different and why the first one isn't and cannot be the job of the
> linguist. The two disciplines do feed each other, however using linguistic
> analysis to help understanding an already written text is very different
> from pretending that such linguistic analysis can help define the writing
> style of future texts. I don't believe the linguist has much to say there,
> except maybe trying to speak against the worst cases of prescriptivism.


You don't think linguists could run experiments regarding what texts are
more comprehensible?  You don't think discourse analysis can tell us useful
things that can be applied to writing?  You don't think linguists can help
determine what words are offensive so that that information can be used in
court -- such as in the Washington Redskins case?


> >  Your analogy is broken: astronomers *cannot* affect the orbits of
> > the planets short of using a massive rocket or colliding an asteroid (of
> > course, if you want to move a planet, you would probably want to consult
> > not an astronomer, but an astrophysicist).  However, social science can
> and
> > does have a direct impact on human behavior.  If economists and
> > sociologists regularly give advice on how to construct laws and structure
> > societies, and psychologists regularly devise treatments for mental
> > disorders (and even make value judgements as to what is a disorder --
> > eep!), then why can't linguists give advice on writing, based on
> empirical
> > study of what writing conventions make the reader understand the text
> > better, or any other quantifiable objective?  Linguists can and do, after
> > all, give advice as to how to teach languages, how to treat language
> > disorders, etc.
> >
>
> Things that are light-years away from the issue of writing style. I don't
> believe my analogy is flawed (yes, except for the fact that I should have
> been more precise and should have talked about astrophysicists). As for
> those economists and sociologists you mention, I believe most of them don't
> pass muster as empirical scientists, putting philosophy and personal
> opinions before fact analysis. As for psychologists, that's the first time
> I've ever heard that they devise treatments for mental disorders! I've
> always known that it was *psychiatrists* that were doing that!
> (psychologists are to psychiatrists what biologists are to doctors: they
> describe and try to understand. But it's the second one of the pair who
> uses the knowledge gathered by the first to eradicate diseases, or even to
> decide what is a disease or not!)
>

Biologists and medical researchers often are testing drugs *specifically
for the purpose of determining what treatments are best*!  You can argue
that they are just presenting data, and the FDA makes the actual decision,
but I would argue that these people wouldn't even CARE about drug testing
if it didn't have an effect on whether or not safe and effective drugs are
used.


> Yes, the knowledge linguists gather can be used by education specialists to
> devise better language teaching methods, or by speech therapists to treat
> language disorders. But it's not up to the linguist to decide on those
> issues! They can give data for others to work with, and *that's all they
> can, and should, do*. In the same way, even if linguistic data could be
> useful for the definition of a writing style (which I'm not sure about), it
> would still not be the job of the linguist to define that writing style!
> And it would certainly not be the job of the linguist to have opinions on
> the source of their data! As any empiricist, linguists are supposed to be
> unbiased towards their data. It's not an assumption, or a hypothesis that
> needs to be justified. It's a very tenet of empirical science. As soon as
> linguists forget that, they cease to be scientists.


By your logic, no scientist can ever make any suggestion in any paper about
how their data can be applied to practical problems.  But these are the
people best qualified to interpret said data!  Yes, it's important to
distance oneself from value judgements when doing the actual research, but
would you want to live in a world where climatologists could not suggest
specific strategies to avert global warming?  Scientists can and do suggest
ways to apply their theories to practical problems.  You can try to put
them into the box of "only gathering data and presenting value-neutral
analyses" but that simply isn't the way the world works.

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