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CONLANG  October 2012, Week 3

CONLANG October 2012, Week 3

Subject:

Re: ideology & linguistics

From:

"Mike S." <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 17 Oct 2012 15:27:11 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (139 lines)

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 12:36 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Mike S., On 17/10/2012 06:35:
>
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 5:38 PM, And Rosta<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>>
>>  Mike S., On 16/10/2012 21:17:
>>>
>>>  On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Jack Steiner<[log in to unmask]**
>>>> **com<[log in to unmask]**com <[log in to unmask]>>
>>>>
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Really none of this matters. As a scientist the linguist could care
>>>>> less
>>>>> about politics or the human condition, unless they apply to language.
>>>>> As
>>>>> far as dialects are concerned we know for a fact that these are as
>>>>> linguistically legitimate as the 'standard' form. Any socio-political
>>>>> ramifications are completely up to the whim of the interpreter.
>>>>> Besides we all know human politics are meaningless as we're all going
>>>>> to
>>>>> be eaten by bears someday.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not that a linguist shouldn't care, it's that he isn't be able to
>>>> change the socio-political ramifications even if he wanted to do so.
>>>> Declaring this or that dialect "equal" to the standard one doesn't make
>>>> it
>>>> equal in socio-political reality.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It does, but little by little rather than in one fell swoop; but that's
>>> how politics generally works. Other prejudices, such as racial prejudice,
>>> have been defeated by denouncing the prejudice as without rational basis
>>> and odious. In defeating dialect prejudice we still have a way to go, but
>>> linguisticians are necessarily in the vanguard of that struggle.
>>>
>>
>> No one is justifying irrational prejudice against people over their
>> accents.
>>
>
> In case it wasn't obvious, I was disagreeing only with you saying the
> linguist is impotent to effect change; I had no intention or reason to
> impute to you irrational prejudice or any lack of virtue.


It was obvious, but we are far enough away from NCNC land that I just
wanted to make it plain.



>  Speaking for myself, I respect individuals as they are.  People
>> can and will talk however they like, or how they are wont to do, or how
>> they were raised at their mother's knee, and that is fine (not just for
>> Black folks, but also for the White American Southern/rural "rednecks"
>> that
>> it's currently so fashionable to abuse on this side of the pond -- by the
>> way, where's the outrage over "redneck jokes").  But in certain jobs, for
>> example sales, or customer support, or broadcasting, the way you talk
>> matters and can't be made not to matter, unless you want to entirely scrap
>> the idea of a standard dialect.
>>
>
> I'm not sure if you are thinking of a need to ensure intelligibility, or
> an economically-driven need to pander to the prejudice of the customer. If
> the former, then Yes, but that's a separate question. If the latter, the
> economic imperative is opposed by the moral imperative.


The point that I was trying to make here is that speaking is a part of
being competent in *some* professions in a way that skin color is not.  If
a given human resources manager is responsible for hiring technical support
personnel who spend most of their time talking to frustrated customers,
then surely it's reasonable (for everyone involved) to favor hiring the
person who speaks the idiom of a majority of the customers.  Likewise,
wherever I go in the USA, I expect the local evening news to be delivered
in the local regional accent.  It would be odd to visit Indianapolis and
hear the weather forecast on the radio given in a Chinese accent (even an
intelligible one).



>
>  Just out of curiosity, do you see any advantage at all to having a
>> standard dialect for the national community? If so, how do you square
>> this with your struggle against "dialect  prejudice"?
>>
>
> There are pros and cons to having a standard dialect, but overall on
> balance I think it is a really really bad thing. The standard is the native
> dialect of the privileged and not of the disadvantaged and serves to
> entrench the privileged and the disadvantaged in their positions, and to
> reinforce attitudes and myths of superiority and correctness.
>

Interestingly, I don't think that all leftists and progressives have
regarded the standard dialect the way you do.  In fact I think many
leftists and progressives would view the standard as a great device for
equalizing and democratizing society.  When we hear talk in the USA about
the importance of dialects, we do hear it from defenders of AAVE, but we
also sometimes hear it from Southern agrarian types who don't wish to talk
like Yankees, the latter of whom are hardly leftists.



> Having said all of which, I hope David might see his way to moving us back
> to the topic of leftist ideology in twentieth century linguistics. I
> mentioned the matter of dialect prejudice only because that was the only
> example I could think of.  (I promise not to accuse anybody of reading the
> Daily Telegraph...)
>
> --And.
>

I am interested in this topic, but from what little you've said so far,
(and I honestly don't mean any offense) I find your understanding of left
and right at least half a century out of date, at least for the USA.  The
"bourgeois" that you seem to disdain control the corporate and political
apparati that are aggressively implementing all sorts of policies that seem
leftist to me.  They are the ones actively subjecting White working class
people to "sensitivity training" (leftist indoctrination) and "affirmative
action" (job displacement and exclusion from university enrollment), and
voting Obama president.  Most of the people who consume Fox News (if this
might stand as a sort of US analog of the Daily Telegraph) are in the lower
strata of society.  But maybe things are different in Britain.

Obviously that last paragraph isn't language related so I won't follow up
on it, but if there is to be a discussion of leftism in linguistics, then I
am curious as to what exactly is meant by "left".

-- 
co ma'a mke

Xorban blog: Xorban.wordpress.com <http://xorban.wordpress.com/>
My LL blog: Loglang.wordpress.com <http://loglang.wordpress.com/>

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