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CONLANG  October 2012, Week 5

CONLANG October 2012, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Denny's wins some linguistic savvy points

From:

George Corley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 02:50:24 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (173 lines)

On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 2:18 AM, J. 'Mach' Wust <[log in to unmask]
> wrote:

> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 10:45:14 -0500, George Corley wrote:
> >OK, I'm a little confused.  Is phonetic spelling and "according to
> >phonology" not the same for you.
>
> I'm sorry if I have been confusing. An orthography can be more or less
> phonological. Can scripts be phonological? I don't think that's an adequate
> term. All alphabets and syllabaries are phonetic insofar as they represent
> sounds (some represent syllalbes, some represent segmental sounds, and of
> the latter some distinguish between consonants and vowels and others
> dont't). Can an alphabet be any more phonetic than any other alphabet (a
> claim that lingers around with respect to Tolkien's alphabets)? I don't
> think so. Can an orthography be more ponological than another orthography?
> Very definitly so.


I seem to understand what you are getting at.  No alphabet other than IPA
is phonetic for ALL languages.  A specific orthography for a specific
language can, however, be more or less phonemic than another orthography.
 This, I can agree with, but I don't think we should necessarily restrict
the way we use conlangs and con-scripts because it might possibly reinforce
a lay misunderstanding about language.  And to the extent that (mis-)uses
of scripts reflect lay misunderstandings, well, that is a valid criticism,
though I'm not sure if in this case it's entirely clear that the artist had
the misconception you describe.


> > Ultimately, I don't think that you have to research EXACTLY how the
> >original author did something in order to pay homage.  In fact, in this
> >remix culture, it's often artistically valuable to put your own spin on
> >something, such as covering a song in the stylings of a different genre,
> or
> >adding zombies to Pride and Prejudice.
>
> I think it makes a huge difference whether this is done intentionally or
> not. If you know that there were no zombies in Austen's Pride and Prejudice
> and then intentionally decide for adding them, then that may be considered
> artistically valuable. If you know that Tolkien distinguished between
> orthographic and phonological spelling and then intentionally decide for a
> mixture between the two, then it may be considered artistically valuable.
>
> If on the other hand you have no clue whether there were zombies in
> Austen's
> Pride and Prejudice and you just add them because someone on the internet
> claims that there were, then I fail to see how that can be considered
> artistically valuable. If you have no clue whether Tolkien had deliberate
> mixtures of orthographic and phonological spellings and you just mix them
> because someone on the internet said that tengwar are a "phonetic", or,
> even
> worse, if you are trying to reach a phonological spelling and you just come
> up with a mixture of orthographic and phonological spellings because you
> have no idea what you are doing, then I fail to see how that can be
> considered artistically valuable.


I'd like to clarify that Pride and Prejudice and Zombies is an actual
thing:
http://www.amazon.com/Pride-Prejudice-Zombies-Classic-Ultraviolent/dp/1594743347
My understanding is that someone took the original Jane Austen text (which
is in the public domain) and added scenes that reflect modern apocalyptic
zombie fiction.  I haven't read it, so I can't really judge how good it is
or how well things mesh together.

And again, it's not at all clear that the artist involved in the Denny's ad
holds the misconception you think he is holding.

On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 21:36:32 +0100, BPJ wrote:
> >The usage of these scripts was supposed to be subject
> >to variation by language, time, place and writer in the
> >fictional setting, and *his* own usage with English was
> >subject to variation by time, occasion, mood and
> >probably whim. This quote shows that he had no problem
> >with individual variation in others' use of his
> >scripts. Quite likely he saw the devising of different
> >modes of writing as a not only permissible but even
> >desirable expression of creativity, both in himself and
> >others. He was very familiar with medieval orthography,
> >or rather lack thereof, and had built most of his
> >academic reputation on his study of the local and
> >individual variation in medieval texts.
>
> The difference is between what "these scripts were supposed to be" and what
> they are. Maybe in the mind and fiction of their creator they were supposed
> not to have been fixed in spelling. However, I consider myself not to be
> living in the mind or fiction of their creator, but in the real world. And
> in the real world, I find a number of specimina of these scripts. I analyse
> them and I find clear patterns. I want to follow these patterns of the real
> world.


You are free to do that.  But it can still be fun to imagine different
variations, or to put one's own spin on the use of these scripts.  I think
this way regardless of whether the original author would approve, but the
fact that Tolkien might (after all, he used the script in different ways,
himself).  Just looking at his other works, it seems it would be impossible
to use only THE Quenya or Sindarin, since both languages changed
significantly over the author's lifetime, and significant gaps in knowledge
exist for anyone wanting to make any practical use of those languages.


> >Lastly such impositions will not promote the use of
> >these wonderful scripts, but stifle it. We'd get a
> >situation where nobody would dare to produce anything
> >but facsimiles of texts by his hand for fear of not
> >spelling correctly, which would be very far from the
> >spirit of his own practice.
>
> On the contrary, I think the scripts would become much more widely
> accessible if they were stripped off the "phoneticity" myth. I guess that
> most people outside of our hermetic circles don't know much about phonology
> and will have much less trouble in using an orthographic spelling than a
> "phonetic alphabet" (whatever that is supposed to be). I even believe that
> this might have been the very reason why Tolkien used orthographic
> spellings
> in the texts he was addressing to other people. He knew that phonological
> spelling was deeply hermetic so he used orthographic spelling to make those
> texts more widely accessible.


It's not that hermetic.  People can hear sounds and associate them with
letters.  I imagine if people were taught the phonetic values of the Cirth
letters (or modified values for English sounds), they could get the hang of
a phonetic transcription.  Anglophones are perfectly capable of learning
how to render English words in katakana, after all -- and that requires
significant phonological adaptation.


> >> He used it either according to traditional English
> >> spelling or according to phonology.
> >
> >That's not true. Many of his orthographic Tengwar texts
> >contain more or less phonemic 'deviations', and I'm
> >sure that had there been as many Kirth texts we would
> >have seen the same in them. In the leaves from the book
> >of Mazarbul he used Z as an abbreviation for _is_,
> >which looks very much like a phonemic spelling to me!
>
> I disagree, because I don't think that a Z for a final S or a V for a final
> F will turn English orthography into a phonemic spelling. OK, I admit that
> in addition to those occasional Z for S and V for F, there is a single
> instance where Tolkien has spelled WOR instead of WAR. But that's pretty
> much it. In my opinion, the foundation of English orthography lies in the
> preservation of the unshifted vowels, together with things like silent E,
> or
> digraphs such as EA, OU, AI, etc. All these things are faithfully preserved
> in some of Tolkien's certar and tengwar texts. That's why I consider these
> texts to be orthographic spelling. I do so in spite of occasional Z for S
> and V for F and the single WOR for WAR.
>
> I believe if you take the occasional Z for S and V for S and the single WOR
> for WAR as a grounds for calling those texts phonological spellings, then
> you are obfuscating what a phonological spelling really means. In my
> opinion, what a phonological spelling of English really means is replacing
> the shifted vowels by (ideally) true representations of what they are
> pronounced now (EI for "long A", II for "long E", AI for "long I", etc.).
> Again, that is exactly what we find in the remainder of Tolkien's certar
> and
> tengwar texts. That's why I consider these texts and only these texts to be
> phonological spelling.


However, it is a direct counterexample to your claim that Tolkien's usage
of the script was *either* 100% phonological *or*  100% according to
traditional orthography for a given text -- these show a mix of traditional
orthography and phonemicity not unlike the mix in the Denny's ad.

Also, consider that we're having this deep philosophical discussion of a
FREAKING BILLBOARD AD.  I'm not snobbish about "high art" vs "low art", but
considering the medium, we're probably lucky to get anything other than
gibberish in a watermark behind normal English text.

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April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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