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CONLANG  October 2012, Week 5

CONLANG October 2012, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Denny's wins some linguistic savvy points

From:

"J. 'Mach' Wust" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 29 Oct 2012 06:20:01 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (110 lines)

On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 02:50:24 -0500, George Corley wrote:
>I seem to understand what you are getting at.  No alphabet other than IPA
>is phonetic for ALL languages.  A specific orthography for a specific
>language can, however, be more or less phonemic than another orthography.

I wouldn't even make any exception for the IPA. Broad IPA "transcriptions"
tend to be highly conventionalized -- or orthographic, if you will. They are
even taught like spelling rules and not like 'listen carefully to what you
hear and then write that down'.

> This, I can agree with, but I don't think we should necessarily restrict
>the way we use conlangs and con-scripts because it might possibly reinforce
>a lay misunderstanding about language.  And to the extent that (mis-)uses
>of scripts reflect lay misunderstandings, well, that is a valid criticism,
>though I'm not sure if in this case it's entirely clear that the artist had
>the misconception you describe.

I don't want to accuse Denny's artist of anything. It is, however, a common
lay misunderstanding that Tolkien's scipts are somehow "phonetic".

>I'd like to clarify that Pride and Prejudice and Zombies is an actual
>thing:
>http://www.amazon.com/Pride-Prejudice-Zombies-Classic-Ultraviolent/dp/1594743347
>My understanding is that someone took the original Jane Austen text (which
>is in the public domain) and added scenes that reflect modern apocalyptic
>zombie fiction.  I haven't read it, so I can't really judge how good it is
>or how well things mesh together.

From your wording, I already thought that this must exist. Sounds like fun!

>>The difference is between what "these scripts were supposed to be" and
>>what they are. Maybe in the mind and fiction of their creator they were
>>supposed not to have been fixed in spelling. However, I consider myself
>>not to be living in the mind or fiction of their creator, but in the
>>real world. And in the real world, I find a number of specimina of
>>these scripts. I analyse them and I find clear patterns. I want to
>>follow these patterns of the real world.
>
>You are free to do that.  But it can still be fun to imagine different
>variations, or to put one's own spin on the use of these scripts.

It certainly is!

> I think
>this way regardless of whether the original author would approve, but the
>fact that Tolkien might (after all, he used the script in different ways,
>himself).

Then again, we know from letters that he disapproved of certain uses that were out of place like reusing the names Elrond or Shadowfax, if I am not mistaken, for a cow or an ugly boat, respectively. Would he have approved of a mixture of orthographic and phonological spelling? There are hints that he preferred phonological spelling (there is one in the most recent Parma Eldalamberon), but still, all of the texts that were addressed to other people used orthographical spelling.

> Just looking at his other works, it seems it would be impossible
>to use only THE Quenya or Sindarin, since both languages changed
>significantly over the author's lifetime, and significant gaps in knowledge
>exist for anyone wanting to make any practical use of those languages.

This is different in the case of the scripts. Especially if what you want to
do is transcibe English, then the numerous examples by Tolkien allow for
almost any transcription with a very high degree of fidelity. After all,
scripts are considerably less complex than languages.

>It's not that hermetic.  People can hear sounds and associate them with
>letters.  I imagine if people were taught the phonetic values of the Cirth
>letters (or modified values for English sounds), they could get the hang of
>a phonetic transcription.  Anglophones are perfectly capable of learning
>how to render English words in katakana, after all -- and that requires
>significant phonological adaptation.

Yet still, it is two tasks: Learn the script AND learn phonology. I think
dropping one of the two tasks will make things simpler no matter what.

>> I believe if you take the occasional Z for S and V for S and the single
>>WOR for WAR as a grounds for calling those texts phonological spellings,
>>then you are obfuscating what a phonological spelling really means. In my
>>opinion, what a phonological spelling of English really means is
>>replacing the shifted vowels by (ideally) true representations of what
>>they are pronounced now (EI for "long A", II for "long E", AI for "long
>>I", etc.). Again, that is exactly what we find in the remainder of
>>Tolkien's certar and tengwar texts. That's why I consider these texts and
>>only these texts to be phonological spelling.
>
>However, it is a direct counterexample to your claim that Tolkien's usage
>of the script was *either* 100% phonological *or*  100% according to
>traditional orthography for a given text -- these show a mix of traditional
>orthography and phonemicity not unlike the mix in the Denny's ad.

Good reply. I haven't said 100%, though. I still uphold that all of
Tolkien's text are clearly either orthographic or phonological, if you stick
to the key elements that constitute orthographic or phonological spelling.
In the case of English, I believe that this key element is the great vowel
shift. In this regard, I believe Tolkien's mixtures (orthographical spelling
with marginal phonological changes such as occasional Z for S and V for F
and one instance of WOR for WAR) to be very different from the Denny's ad
mixture (even though it is relatively short, it seems to be like some kind
of phonological spelling with interspersed pre-shift vowels and other funky
stuff such as morphophonemicity).

>Also, consider that we're having this deep philosophical discussion of a
>FREAKING BILLBOARD AD.  I'm not snobbish about "high art" vs "low art", but
>considering the medium, we're probably lucky to get anything other than
>gibberish in a watermark behind normal English text.

Very much so! I completely agree with you in this respect! It is just me
who's having strong feelings about the lay misunderstanding that Tolkien's
scripts are "phonetic" and therefore inherently require phonological
spelling -- they don't.

-- 
grĂ¼ess
mach

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