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CONLANG  November 2012, Week 2

CONLANG November 2012, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Logical conlang with easy phonology.

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:01:51 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (49 lines)

Alex Fink, On 12/11/2012 18:32:
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 16:21:42 +0000, And Rosta<[log in to unmask]>  wrote:
>> Take two identical languages except one has three vowels where the other has six: can one really believe that the three-vowel language is spoken at twice the speed (syllables per second) of the six-vowel one?
>
> No. But information goes as the logarithm of the number of
> possibilities, so this would just add log_2(2) = 1 bit to the
> information, not double it. And given that our language presumably
> has consonants which carry at least a few bits apiece as well, the
> difference in speeds predicted on adding one more bit per syllable
> isn't wholly outside the realm of plausibility.

Things like "log_2(2)" mean nothing to me, alas, even with Wikipedia to assist.

Let me see if I understand you. Suppose Lgs A and B are all CV syllables. Lg A has 64 syllables. Lg B has 128 syllables. Lg A requires 6 bits per syll, and Lg B requires 7 bits per syll, so Lg B encodes not 100% more info than A but rather only 16.7% more? That's kind of counterintuitive, because roughly speaking you can say 100% more things unambiguously in B (e.g. if each syllable were an interjection).

At any rate, I agree that the claim that Lg B is spoken 16.7% slower than A is less incredible than the claim that it is spoken 100% slower.

>> In an effective loglang, I think the success and effectiveness will
>> depend on the predicate--argument structure being encoded in a
>> sufficiently backgrounded way. This is only hunchy speculation,
>> tho.
>
> I'd guess similarly.
>
> Do you think Xorban is doing this well? Having multiple distinct
> pronouns with no syntactic or semantic difference between them is
> sufficiently unexampled in natlangs that it makes me worry that the
> thoroughgoing use of named variables in Xorban might not be
> sufficiently backgroundable (without damage).

In case anybody else is reading: Xorban pronouns/variables are expressed as mainly-arbitrary vocalic morphemes that assign a unique name to the variable within the scope of the syntactic constituent headed by the binder of the variable. It's basically a version of standard predicate logic notation, but using vowels (and vowel-sequences) rather than just any old letter (like _x, y, z_ etc.).

I think the Xorban system is backgrounded, because it's obligatory. I also think it's extremely easy to grasp and learn the rules for it, which is a big plus if you want the language to be a plausible choice for significant real-world usage (as a quasi-auxlang).

However, I also think that the Xorban system imposes very heavy loads on short-term memory (i.e. stuff you have to remember while processing the sentence and can then forget). (And indeed, some proposed versions of Xorban impose an even heavier load.) Natlangs make hardly any use (if any) of short-term ad-hoc naming. This makes me suspect that Xorban could never be spoken -- and, especially, heard -- anywhere near as effortlessly and fluently as a natlang. That's not so much of a problem if it were mainly used in written form, tho.

I'll offer a comparison with the Livagian system. Each word consists of a predicate stem plus a number of affixes encoding how its arguments map to the still-accessible arguments of the rest-of-the-sentence-so-far. (Still-accessible arguments are those that will be cobound with an argument of a later predicate.) This still imposes a short-term memory load: an ordered list of still-accessible arguments must be remembered. Natlangs kind of do do this, in that when you have nested filler--gap constructions you can have a stack of fillers waiting to be matched with their gap. But Livagian does it on a much more intensive scale. OTOH, Livagian has no other syntax, so the entirety of the morphosyntactic processing effort is devoted to this list-processing. Compared to Xorban, the Livagian system is much harder to grasp and learn the rules of, and harder to become an accomplished user of, but I think it makes less unrealistic cognitive demands on real-time use. Nevertheless, becaus
e it is not based on hierarchical syntax, it seems quite likely that the processing cannot make use of the innate processing facility of the language faculty. As for backgrounding of predicate--argument structure in Livagian, on the one hand it is obligatory and is syntactic rather than lexical, so is as backgrounded as much as possible, but on the other hand I'm fairly sure that especially if I tried to keep predicate stems as short as possible, quite a large majority of the phonological string would be given over to encoding predicate--argument structure, tho in that respect it's not unlike some of the highly inflected classical Indo European lgs, in which the majority of the word consists of inflectional suffixes.

As a loglang with auxlang potential, Xorban is the best candidate currently available. But as a pure system (i.e. ignoring auxlang potential), Livagian falls less far short of being the perfect loglang.

> (ASL with its spatial pronouns are arguably an example of this,
> though. Can I wriggle out by saying that ASL pronouns do connote
> (metaphorical) spatial location?)

Good point & good question. I think the difference in the SL case is that assigned locations are partly iconic and are assigned to discourse-prominent referents and are managed as part of discoure organization, rather than being assigned to every single argument of every single predicate and managed as part of morphosyntax.

--And.

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